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EMIYA
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Apr 29 2017, 04:23 PM
Post #16
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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On the comparison of Gotenks and Gogeta, here's a question.
Where do you all have say "Gohan" in comparison to Goku and Vegeta? It's significant, we know that. This part isn't an argument. But how much of a gap because I think few, if any of us would go as far as 2x.
Now where do you have the kids in comparison to Gohan? Because Gohan outright stated that if he wasn't careful, Goten would end up surpassing him. So what are your gap between the kids and the adults?
And then finally you have Gotenks clearly making improvements. That means the gap between Gotenks and Gogeta drops even more. Frankly if you use the SEG, Gotenks destroys Gogeta but clearly the manga had a different view on that.
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滅Are you frightened?
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Goku: 680 million -SSJ: 34 billion -SSJ2: 68 billion
Vegeta: 680 million -SSJ: 34 billion -SSJ2: 68 billion
Gohan: 526 million -SSJ: 26.3 billion -SSJ2: 52.6 billion
Trunks: 510 million -SSJ: 25.5 billion
Goten: 505 million - SSJ: 25.25 billion
So using Trunks as the highest for the kids, Goku and Vegeta are a 1.33x difference with the kids.
But even in equal forms, Gogeta is far stronger then Gotenks.
But my proposal suggests that Super Saiyan Gogeta could be more or less on Buutenks' level. Mainly cause, in such short notice, Gogehan/Gogeta won't be able to turn Super Saiyan from the get go but Goku would want to maximize the resulting fusion's power by going into the most stable Super Saiyan form which would be the first one cause the next two sap too much stamina and energy. Keeping that in mind, Goku was confident they'd win and Elder Kaioshin never disputes the power of the hypothetical just that Buu wouldn't wait.
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+ Pyrus
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Apr 29 2017, 06:38 PM
Post #18
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I disagree, and I'm going to quote someone who said what I believe in a couple posts.
- RandomGuy96
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It's not just that line, it's basically everything we know about hypothetical Gogeta and the kids' strength in relation to the adults. Goku not recomending dance fusion to beat Buu until literally right after they remove Gohan (despite acknowledging that it will work inside Buu earlier), the kids being shown repeatedly to be very, very strong, dance fusion being consistently portrayed as something you can accurately guess the result of, Goku wondering what level of Super Saiyan he'll need as Gokan (Goku + someone way stronger than Vegeta) to beat Buutenks, even after hearing that Potara is way better than fusion, Vegetto being surprised Buuhan can't give him a fight in his Super Saiyan state (even after Old Kai specifically said that base Gokan would be enough to stomp Buutenks), Buuhan using his vast amount of knowledge (more than Goku had when he made accurate predictions) to predict the result of the fusion, Buutenks thinking that hypothetical dance fusion Gokan probably can't beat him RIGHT AFTER seeing a fusion performed and sensing all potential fusees, et cetera. There's not a single line of dialogue anywhere that implies Gogeta would be a match for Buuhan, certainly not SS or SS2 Gogeta.
Super Buu always admits inferiority when he is outclassed; when he heard that Gohan MIGHT be stronger than him, he freaked out and thought up a whole plan to get around fighting him. Yet when he hears Goku and Vegeta, two people he knows the exact strength of, are going to merge, using a technique he knows the effect of, he gives so few s***s that he doesn't even amp up his speed to reach them faster, and thinks to himself that they'll still be nothing to him.
So there are many instances that suggest Buuhan can beat SS3 Gogeta, and absolutely none that suggest that Gogeta can beat him.
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MYSTERIOUSLY, he decided that it suddenly was his responsibility to stop Buu the moment Buu got weaker. He went from pissing his pants at the thought of fighting him to being eager to fight him right there. Also mysteriously, he outright stated earlier that his plan was to revert Super Buu to Fat Buu, and said that if they couldnt do that, he'd need fusion for sure. Mysteriously, he said that twice.
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Want to know something interesting? After the Potara is crushed, Goku and Vegeta find Gohan and the others. Upon seeing Goten and Trunks, Goku says something like:
"Their fusion only wore out because their 30 minutes was up. We can still fuse inside Buu."
(cuts out the pods inside Buu, causing Buuhan to revert back to base Super Buu)
"Okay, he's a lot weaker now."
(Vegeta:) "Let's go out and fight then"
(Goku): "No! Even though his power has dropped a ton, we're still simply no match for his strength!"
(Vegeta): "Well what else can we do?"
(Goku): "We can still fuse..."
(Vegeta rages)
Notice how he only recommends fusion AFTER Buuhan is gone, and specifically says that it's something they can do NOW THAT BUU'S POWER HAS DROPPED A TON. This is despite them explicitly acknowledging they could do so earlier. So Buuhan can beat SS3 Gogeta- which matches Buuhan's statement, Buutenks' statement, the Daizenshuu, the implications about the boys' strength, the statements that fusion is something that can be accurately guessed, and just about everything else we know- or at the very least he's not an easy to win to SS3 Gogeta. There is not a single shred of evidence ANYWHERE in the entire manga that indicates SS3 Gogeta can beat Buuhan, and a bunch of evidence that says the opposite. Yet people still want to w*** Gogeta.
Also, when Vegeta says that they don't need to fuse any more, Goku says "You don't know that! There's no guarantee we'll be able to find everyone and weaken this Buu to the very first one of all...!". When he finds Fat Buu inside Buu's body, he specifically calls this Buu "the very first one of all". Goku was never intending to fight Super Buu, and he admitted being no match for him without fusion tons of times. I don't know how much clearer the author could've been. I bet that if they actually SHOWED Super Buu kicking Goku's a***, fanboys would still say "NUH UH GOKU THREW THAT FIGHT!".
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How many times does this have to be debunked? Here's what Old Kai said:
Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3 Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!” Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”
He specifically says that this fusion is very powerful because Goku and Vegeta are very powerful. Two of the three most powerful people in the universe, to be exact. That's it. It's pretty simple. He never implies that two other great masters wouldn't make a similarly powerful fusion. Old Kai has no doubts that the Potara is mega ultra powerful compared to the dance, and a key reason why Vegetto is so powerful:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3 Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”
Here he specifically says that the Potara are the reason Gokan would be able to beat Buutenks. He's basically comparing Vegetto to Kibitoshin, who said would be worthless against Buutenks PRECISELY BECAUSE Kaioshin was "nothing special" to begin with. Nowhere does he ever say that Goku and Vegeta will be maximum no matter what, and nowhere is it ever implied that they get a magical boost that no one else does whenever they fuse. In fact, the exact opposite is implied many, many times, when Goku states that fusion is something whose results you can accurately guess, implying consistency to it.
The only thing we know for sure, with 100% certainty, is that Vegetto is strong while Kibitoshin is not is because "two of the three greatest masters" fused to make Vegetto, while the components of Kibitoshin were "never anything special".
Buuhan wipes the floor with Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta. I have no idea why people keep w***ing him so hard when there's not a single shred of evidence in the entire manga that points to him being that much stronger than Gotenks, and an abundance of evidence that points to him being weaker than Buuhan, or at the very least in Buuhan's tier.
EDIT: Oh, and for people who want to bring up Fusion Reborn as evidence for why Gogeta is strong: Gogeta does nothing impressive in that movie. He easily beats a guy who had to resort to portals, teleportation, and a magic sword to beat fricking SS3 Goku, which is easy peasy and was called "the strongest hero in the universe" in the Daizenshuu. All that means is SS Gogeta > Janemba and SS Gogeta > SS3 Goku > SS Gotenks in Movie 13, which was obvious. Not that Movie 13 matters anyway, since Goku was apparently anime haxxed there.
EDIT EDIT: Goku also outright said Potara was the only way to beat Gohan-Buu, and was only willing to try dance fusion against base Super Buu.
There's just not much more to be said from the manga's standpoint. Hypothetical manga!Gogeta isn't given any real respect, not to the extent of Potara Gokhan or Vegetto. He's put down by Boo, Elder Kaioshin, and Goku himself (until the right moment appears).
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