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Question for atheists and agnostics
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Topic Started: Apr 22 2017, 10:15 PM (1,794 Views)
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+ Son-Goku
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Apr 23 2017, 04:35 AM
Post #16
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孫悟空
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- Tinny
- Apr 23 2017, 04:01 AM
- Slayer
- Apr 23 2017, 01:38 AM
I'm not sure how someone can flat out say that there's no higher being or anything. Doesn't seem very logical to me considering how perfect everything really is. Like how perfect gravity is, how perfect distance we are from the sun, how our bodies function. Coincidence is not a logical outcome at all. Some scientists say that DNA (lol typed DBZ first) is so complex in it's design that it has to have a designer. Anyways, I'm not trying to say what other people believe. I know there are some people that believe in no higher being, but I agree I don't know how someone can say that it's all an accident or coincidence. Not trying to offend anyone, if I did I apologize.
We also eat using the same hole we breath through, there is so much on this planet that seems needlessly cruel to be designed as such and allowed to happen. When I eat food there's a chance I will choke and die and I've come face got face with this more than a few times when even some water, which I need to live, goes down the wrong pipe. Sun rays which we need can give us skin disease and venturing too far out of the planet can subject us to radiation and cancer. Pregnancy has a very real chance of causing death to women, as well as immense pain. Our spine is a mess that will give us back problems, so many people have birth defects of all kinds from a hunched back to parkinson's. How is any of this perfect? And going from that, one could, and some have, aegued that any God that would make this and be all powerful is not only not good, but either incompetent or evil and unworthy of worship in either case. Not my opinion but it is one gels and is why I feel that the idea that we're perfect is not very valid one on closer inspection.
I guess you're right about it all not being perfect, that was a bad word for me to use indeed. But there's no denying how accurate all of those things are with the position of the planet and everything else I said.
I'm a Christian, but all I was saying is that it's hard to deny that there is no creator at all. Doesn't necessarily have to be my God.
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Sam
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Apr 23 2017, 04:50 AM
Post #17
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Technically, all atheists are agnostic atheists. An atheist that outright denies the possibility of any god or god-like force is being ridiculous. See the flying spaghetti monster, for instance. While we may be 100% certain in our belief that the Abrahamic God certainly cannot exist - we cannot know whether or not another god-like being exists out in the universe. We can be pretty sure we think no, but, there's literally no way for us to know for certain, hence, agnostic-atheist is really a better term to describe my belief system and most rational self-coined atheists. Any atheist that absolutely denies the possibility, however small, of a god existing is falling into a lot of the same logical fallacies they're trying to avoid by coining themselves an atheist in the first place 
Just my $.02, might not make a lot of sense? I'm really exhausted. I'll write more later if it's relevant to the point I'm making 
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Copy_Ninja
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Apr 23 2017, 04:51 AM
Post #18
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Novacane for the pain
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- Slayer
- Apr 23 2017, 04:35 AM
I'm a Christian, but all I was saying is that it's hard to deny that there is no creator at all. Doesn't necessarily have to be my God.
It's really not that hard. You seem to be drawing on an assumption that there it can't possibly be a coincidence that we have life on this planet when really it can. Think of all the billions of planets out there that are too far from the sun, or don't have a water source or the right conditions for life. There could be very few planets like this one that can support life. Not everything needs to be by design or done on purpose. We have scientific theories such as evolution to explain why our bodies are so well adapted to our surroundings.
If you think that it can't be coincidence then I can accept that, it's an understandable position to take. But equally, it's pretty easy to look at everything we know and think "damn, we got pretty fortunate the way things landed here."
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+ Ssj3vegito96
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Apr 23 2017, 07:08 AM
Post #19
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- Sam
- Apr 23 2017, 04:50 AM
Technically, all atheists are agnostic atheists. An atheist that outright denies the possibility of any god or god-like force is being ridiculous. See the flying spaghetti monster, for instance. While we may be 100% certain in our belief that the Abrahamic God certainly cannot exist - we cannot know whether or not another god-like being exists out in the universe. We can be pretty sure we think no, but, there's literally no way for us to know for certain, hence, agnostic-atheist is really a better term to describe my belief system and most rational self-coined atheists. Any atheist that absolutely denies the possibility, however small, of a god existing is falling into a lot of the same logical fallacies they're trying to avoid by coining themselves an atheist in the first place Just my $.02, might not make a lot of sense? I'm really exhausted. I'll write more later if it's relevant to the point I'm making
This. You put it well actually. That's what my point is in the OP
- Copy_Ninja
- Apr 23 2017, 04:51 AM
- Slayer
- Apr 23 2017, 04:35 AM
I'm a Christian, but all I was saying is that it's hard to deny that there is no creator at all. Doesn't necessarily have to be my God.
It's really not that hard. You seem to be drawing on an assumption that there it can't possibly be a coincidence that we have life on this planet when really it can. Think of all the billions of planets out there that are too far from the sun, or don't have a water source or the right conditions for life. There could be very few planets like this one that can support life. Not everything needs to be by design or done on purpose. We have scientific theories such as evolution to explain why our bodies are so well adapted to our surroundings. If you think that it can't be coincidence then I can accept that, it's an understandable position to take. But equally, it's pretty easy to look at everything we know and think "damn, we got pretty fortunate the way things landed here."
Imo it's harder to say "oh we just got lucky that's how we're here on the only if not one of the only planets that sustain life for billions of years in the unimaginably big universe we don't even completely understand" than it is to say "this probably was planned by someone/something. There are so many conditions that had to be just right for all this to work"
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* Mitas
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Apr 23 2017, 09:46 AM
Post #20
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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- Ssj3vegito96
- Apr 23 2017, 07:08 AM
Imo it's harder to say "oh we just got lucky that's how we're here on the only if not one of the only planets that sustain life for billions of years in the unimaginably big universe we don't even completely understand" than it is to say "this probably was planned by someone/something. There are so many conditions that had to be just right for all this to work"
But luck has nothing to do with it. There's no bad luck or good luck in the equation, there's just a possibility of sustaining life and not sustaining life. Luck infers that there are others with bad luck who aren't existing because they were born on a planet that can't sustain life.
In regards to the topic, atheism is having a stance, whereas agnosticism is the lack of one. I think the main issue with religious people not understanding how atheists are still open to the possibility of a deity is because religion preaches blind, unwavering faith. They're brought up in an environment where you're taught you have to be all-in. Science isn't like that. Just because atheists are open to the possibility of being wrong, doesn't mean they believe they can be.
I also feel like religious people are so centred around the concept of faith and belief, they almost take an atheist's openness to being wrong as some sort of victory for the side of religion. Almost like they see the small opening atheists leave as a sign of weakness on their part, and a strengthening of their own position. 'See, even atheists are open to the possibility of there being a god'.
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time."
"Next time?"
"Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is."
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Cal
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May 11 2017, 10:31 PM
Post #21
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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It's dumb to say 'there is no God'.
When you do this the burden of proof for the existence or non-existence of God or a deity 100% lays with the person making the statement.
From a scientific standpoint the argument for or against a deity strongly supports non-existence. However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I personally believe in God. I used to not. In case anyone is wondering based on my answer..
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Tinny
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May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
Post #22
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- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
Edited by Tinny, May 11 2017, 11:05 PM. |
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Cal
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May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
Post #23
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question.
If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
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Tinny
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May 11 2017, 11:58 PM
Post #24
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- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
I'm still not sure I understand, if something happens contrary to the scientific theory, then either I missaw something or that theory is wrong, and to find out the truth... I'd just have to apply the scientific method and figure out just what happened right? Assuming I really cared to find out.
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Above signature created by Graffiti
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Cal
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May 12 2017, 02:29 AM
Post #25
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:58 PM
- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
I'm still not sure I understand, if something happens contrary to the scientific theory, then either I missaw something or that theory is wrong, and to find out the truth... I'd just have to apply the scientific method and figure out just what happened right? Assuming I really cared to find out.
While science is great in that it is ever changing and always evolving it is a fallacy to assume you will be able to understand better or new things in using the same method that led you down an incorrect path to begin with.
It's the age old question of whether mathematics (the tool that makes science so great) is man made or was discovered as a truth of the universe.
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+ Pointer
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May 12 2017, 05:40 AM
Post #26
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...
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- Cal
- May 12 2017, 02:29 AM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:58 PM
- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
I'm still not sure I understand, if something happens contrary to the scientific theory, then either I missaw something or that theory is wrong, and to find out the truth... I'd just have to apply the scientific method and figure out just what happened right? Assuming I really cared to find out.
While science is great in that it is ever changing and always evolving it is a fallacy to assume you will be able to understand better or new things in using the same method that led you down an incorrect path to begin with. It's the age old question of whether mathematics (the tool that makes science so great) is man made or was discovered as a truth of the universe.
Try to describe a black hole with physics and mathematics. Try to find answers for the two side of the particles ( particle and wave)
I think our current science shall improve drastically in order to answer those questions above. Like a brand new physics or i d k
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* Yu Narukami
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May 12 2017, 09:17 AM
Post #27
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Izanagi!
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- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
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However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
The only issue is that humans are prone to false experiences. Hallucinations and illusions exist, and they can appear to contradict scientific laws and theories, but would you lend them any credence? Comparing scientific theories with personal experiences requires you to confidently, 100% believe that the experience happened in reality.
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Cal
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May 12 2017, 03:30 PM
Post #28
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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- Yu Narukami
- May 12 2017, 09:17 AM
- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
-
However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
The only issue is that humans are prone to false experiences. Hallucinations and illusions exist, and they can appear to contradict scientific laws and theories, but would you lend them any credence? Comparing scientific theories with personal experiences requires you to confidently, 100% believe that the experience happened in reality.
You're assuming the experience is false though, I'm not. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law and you naturally assume it was a false experience you are creating a fallacy. Your judgments based on your experience would be justified as not true by following the logic of the questioned method only, instead of logic itself from a raw form.
The very thing that dictates the scientific method is the experiences/results we get during experimentation.
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* Yu Narukami
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May 12 2017, 03:48 PM
Post #29
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Izanagi!
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- Cal
- May 12 2017, 03:30 PM
- Yu Narukami
- May 12 2017, 09:17 AM
- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
-
However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
The only issue is that humans are prone to false experiences. Hallucinations and illusions exist, and they can appear to contradict scientific laws and theories, but would you lend them any credence? Comparing scientific theories with personal experiences requires you to confidently, 100% believe that the experience happened in reality.
You're assuming the experience is false though, I'm not. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law and you naturally assume it was a false experience you are creating a fallacy. Your judgments based on your experience would be justified as not true by following the logic of the questioned method only, instead of logic itself from a raw form. The very thing that dictates the scientific method is the experiences/results we get during experimentation.
That's the thing, during experimentation. What kind of experience are you talking about? Presumably, if it's a religious one, it's some kind of intense, personal experience with a Deity, in which case you can't really experiment with that.
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Tinny
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May 12 2017, 03:50 PM
Post #30
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- Cal
- May 12 2017, 02:29 AM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:58 PM
- Cal
- May 11 2017, 11:12 PM
- Tinny
- May 11 2017, 11:04 PM
- Quote:
-
However, one must weight personal experiences against scientific theory/laws.
I'm not sure I understand, what exactly do you mean by this specific statement? How does science go against personal experience?
I'll try to explain it better by proposing a question. If you have an experience that contradicts a scientific law or theory which do you side with? Which do you assume is 'true'?
I'm still not sure I understand, if something happens contrary to the scientific theory, then either I missaw something or that theory is wrong, and to find out the truth... I'd just have to apply the scientific method and figure out just what happened right? Assuming I really cared to find out.
While science is great in that it is ever changing and always evolving it is a fallacy to assume you will be able to understand better or new things in using the same method that led you down an incorrect path to begin with. It's the age old question of whether mathematics (the tool that makes science so great) is man made or was discovered as a truth of the universe.
Which is the scientific method? What's specifically wrong with it then?
Also math is entirely man made, at least at certain levels and regarding axioms.
Also regarding the while personal experience vs auteur, science is in done ways many people's experience and experiments to figure out and explaining phenomena, such as things falling downward.
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4:58 PM Jul 13