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Why I think Dabura is underrated
Topic Started: Mar 15 2017, 12:04 PM (869 Views)
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I am not here to say whether gohan was ssj2 or ssj But.I will somehow point out why the vast majority of the fanbase underrate Dabura

1. Dabura saw the power of ssj goku and yes he was surprised that an "earthling" can reach that much of a power, but he didnt s*** himself in terror.

2 We know that gohan was weaker than Goku, in fact goku's ssj was above of CG gohan's ssj. Dabura must have been stronger than Goku or even more because he flat out stated that the trio shall come at him at once. He trusted in his power and despite he didnt know who he shall face against He went to fight them. Even if we use the regular 1.2 factor here. We have to assume that Dabura was at least 20% above of Goku's ssj at that point Though I think it was a bigger difference as I will write next

3. Goku said that Dabura is like Cell was. Note that goku have seen the full power of Cell when he used that against ssj2 gohan, so he pretty much knew of cell's abilities. We could easily say that Goku meant "post zenkai Cell" but then we have to also assume that gohan was ssj2 against dabura or Dabura was severely suppressed against gohan. So for the sake of this lets just say Goku meant FP cell when he compared Dabura to Cell.


4. Later when Gohan fought with Dabura Goku commented that "he (Dabura) might be even stronger than he thought ..." which might apply that Dabura is > Dabura (expected, and who was compared to Cell's full power" )


5. When Vegeta said that he needs to step in, as Gohan is rusty, Goku said that let the fight go .... even if gohan fails its not like they could not defeat him
(which might mean that even if gohan reach his full power and still fail, they could step in and wreck the demon king)




What do you think?
Edited by Pointer, Mar 15 2017, 12:07 PM.

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I agree with the general idea, but I really wouldn't trust Dabra himself on any of this. This is the same guy who thought Super Saiyan Goku was "just glowing," and thought Majin Boo was just some fat, goofy weakling. Based on what we saw of his actual fight with Gohan, his claim that he could really finish him off easily seems to be nonsense, and the same would apply for tacking all three Saiyans at once too. The dude blows a lot of hot air, and I don't mean his flame-breath attack.

But based on other people's comments about him, then yeah, Dabra isn't as strong as he thinks he is, but still pretty darn strong. Right now I'm experimenting with an idea where Dabra is at a level just a bit below full-power Perfect Cell, which fits nicely with how the heroes treated him... in the manga he had a power edge over SS1 Gohan that was exacerbated by Gohan's rustiness, while in the anime he was noticeably weaker than Gohan (as the Dragon Books suggest), who was SS2 in that version, but his own skills and Gohan's weakness and rustiness let the fight be even anyway. Meanwhile Vegeta could put up a much better fight, maybe winning in SS1 and winning easily with SS2, and Goku could win with just SS1.


Full-Power Cell: 4,800
Dabra: 4,000

SS1 Gohan: 3,400
SS2 Gohan: 6,000

SS1 Vegeta: 3,600
SS2 Vegeta: 7,200

SS1 Goku: 4,500
SS2 Goku: 9,000
Edited by Kaboom, Mar 15 2017, 04:04 PM.
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I thought Gohan was stronger in the manga as well. Their one hand-to-hand skirmish ended in Gohan's favor, and Dabura's magic had almost no effect on him as well.
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Pyrus
Mar 15 2017, 08:18 PM
I thought Gohan was stronger in the manga as well. Their one hand-to-hand skirmish ended in Gohan's favor, and Dabura's magic had almost no effect on him as well.

Yeah, that works too, and would certainly explain why Gohan not being SS2 wouldn't be mentioned or treated like a problem; he shouldn't need it if he's already more powerful with just SS1. Like I said, just an idea I'm experimenting with.
Edited by Kaboom, Mar 15 2017, 09:37 PM.
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Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 03:24 PM
I agree with the general idea, but I really wouldn't trust Dabra himself on any of this. This is the same guy who thought Super Saiyan Goku was "just glowing," and thought Majin Boo was just some fat, goofy weakling. Based on what we saw of his actual fight with Gohan, his claim that he could really finish him off easily seems to be nonsense, and the same would apply for tacking all three Saiyans at once too. The dude blows a lot of hot air, and I don't mean his flame-breath attack.

But based on other people's comments about him, then yeah, Dabra isn't as strong as he thinks he is, but still pretty darn strong. Right now I'm experimenting with an idea where Dabra is at a level just a bit below full-power Perfect Cell, which fits nicely with how the heroes treated him... in the manga he had a power edge over SS1 Gohan that was exacerbated by Gohan's rustiness, while in the anime he was noticeably weaker than Gohan (as the Dragon Books suggest), who was SS2 in that version, but his own skills and Gohan's weakness and rustiness let the fight be even anyway. Meanwhile Vegeta could put up a much better fight, maybe winning in SS1 and winning easily with SS2, and Goku could win with just SS1.


Full-Power Cell: 4,800
Dabra: 4,000

SS1 Gohan: 3,400
SS2 Gohan: 6,000

SS1 Vegeta: 3,600
SS2 Vegeta: 7,200

SS1 Goku: 4,500
SS2 Goku: 9,000
how could goku win with only ssj I mean babidi and dabura actually measured the power of ssj goku and Dabura didnt s*** himself. Instead He said " whatever come at me all at once" ... this and the quote from goku that he compared him to cell easily puts him at least Fp cell's level


No need to think otherwise. In the manga the fight was brief, we can not rely on the anime since the rest of the fight was filler.

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I don't think it's fair to judge Dabura's assumption on Fat Boo, since his power is impossible to accurately read.
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Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 09:08 PM
Pyrus
Mar 15 2017, 08:18 PM
I thought Gohan was stronger in the manga as well. Their one hand-to-hand skirmish ended in Gohan's favor, and Dabura's magic had almost no effect on him as well.

Yeah, that works too, and would certainly explain why Gohan not being SS2 wouldn't be mentioned or treated like a problem; he shouldn't need it if he's already more powerful with just SS1. Like I said, just an idea I'm experimenting with.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”


It's not like Gohan is getting beaten around, nor is he beating Dabra around, but he's definitely on the losing end of their fight.
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Deann
Mar 29 2017, 11:35 AM
Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 09:08 PM
Pyrus
Mar 15 2017, 08:18 PM
I thought Gohan was stronger in the manga as well. Their one hand-to-hand skirmish ended in Gohan's favor, and Dabura's magic had almost no effect on him as well.

Yeah, that works too, and would certainly explain why Gohan not being SS2 wouldn't be mentioned or treated like a problem; he shouldn't need it if he's already more powerful with just SS1. Like I said, just an idea I'm experimenting with.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”


It's not like Gohan is getting beaten around, nor is he beating Dabra around, but he's definitely on the losing end of their fight.
I disagree. Gohan pressured Dabra enough to make him use his spit, something which is completely counter to aim and something he'd only do if he was desperate. We've also got Gohan handling his sword and Dabra failing to really damage him at all.

If anything, Gohan had a decent advantage in the fight, but his lack of stamina led to him not being able to win the fight in the end.
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Yu Narukami
Mar 31 2017, 04:31 PM
I disagree. Gohan pressured Dabra enough to make him use his spit, something which is completely counter to aim and something he'd only do if he was desperate. We've also got Gohan handling his sword and Dabra failing to really damage him at all.

If anything, Gohan had a decent advantage in the fight, but his lack of stamina led to him not being able to win the fight in the end.
Who's to say turning him to stone and smashing him wouldn't transfer his energy to Boo? He'd still killed him, just as he would if he sliced him in half. I think that's too much of a shaky point to make. Also, there was no desperation present in Dabra - he spits at Gohan after he takes his mind off the fight to look over at Vegeta, seems to notice Gohan coming at him whilst he was looking away, and casually spits at him. Then he appears in-front of him with a big grin and his sword in-hand as if the spit was just a distraction, and not something he was banking on finishing the job with anyway.

We do have Dabra failing to really damage him, but we also have Gohan failing to really damage Dabra. However, Gohan loses two pieces of his clothing in the process, makes a handful of "shocked faces" that Dabra never does, looks more serious or angry in general while Dabra often smiles and even shifts his focus elsewhere while fighting, has considerably more panels where he's sweating, and even looks a fair bit more tired after the sword-struggle, if you want to really scrutinise it.

Even all three onlookers give the impression that Gohan is the inferior, with Goku's comment summing it up perfectly. Gohan is losing, but not completely.
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Yu Narukami
Mar 31 2017, 04:31 PM
Deann
Mar 29 2017, 11:35 AM
Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 09:08 PM
Pyrus
Mar 15 2017, 08:18 PM
I thought Gohan was stronger in the manga as well. Their one hand-to-hand skirmish ended in Gohan's favor, and Dabura's magic had almost no effect on him as well.

Yeah, that works too, and would certainly explain why Gohan not being SS2 wouldn't be mentioned or treated like a problem; he shouldn't need it if he's already more powerful with just SS1. Like I said, just an idea I'm experimenting with.
Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”


It's not like Gohan is getting beaten around, nor is he beating Dabra around, but he's definitely on the losing end of their fight.
I disagree. Gohan pressured Dabra enough to make him use his spit, something which is completely counter to aim and something he'd only do if he was desperate. We've also got Gohan handling his sword and Dabra failing to really damage him at all.

If anything, Gohan had a decent advantage in the fight, but his lack of stamina led to him not being able to win the fight in the end.
I agree. The fight itself showed Dabura being more ineffective and desperate than Gohan IMO.
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Deann
Mar 31 2017, 05:25 PM
Yu Narukami
Mar 31 2017, 04:31 PM
I disagree. Gohan pressured Dabra enough to make him use his spit, something which is completely counter to aim and something he'd only do if he was desperate. We've also got Gohan handling his sword and Dabra failing to really damage him at all.

If anything, Gohan had a decent advantage in the fight, but his lack of stamina led to him not being able to win the fight in the end.
Who's to say turning him to stone and smashing him wouldn't transfer his energy to Boo? He'd still killed him, just as he would if he sliced him in half. I think that's too much of a shaky point to make. Also, there was no desperation present in Dabra - he spits at Gohan after he takes his mind off the fight to look over at Vegeta, seems to notice Gohan coming at him whilst he was looking away, and casually spits at him. Then he appears in-front of him with a big grin and his sword in-hand as if the spit was just a distraction, and not something he was banking on finishing the job with anyway.

We do have Dabra failing to really damage him, but we also have Gohan failing to really damage Dabra. However, Gohan loses two pieces of his clothing in the process, makes a handful of "shocked faces" that Dabra never does, looks more serious or angry in general while Dabra often smiles and even shifts his focus elsewhere while fighting, has considerably more panels where he's sweating, and even looks a fair bit more tired after the sword-struggle, if you want to really scrutinise it.

Even all three onlookers give the impression that Gohan is the inferior, with Goku's comment summing it up perfectly. Gohan is losing, but not completely.
It's because he wasn't trying to use his spit throughout. If spitting and then breaking them would transfer the energy, it's his best move and he'd have to be a fool to not constantly try it throughout the fight.

What was keeping Gohan in the fight, then? He doesn't have a stamina advantage, he doesn't have a skill advantage, and now he apparently doesn't have a power advantage. Apart from Dabra's idiocy, why was Gohan able to keep up and survive?
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Gohan did have a skill advantage. That's why Dabura relied on his magic rather than fighting straight up. Their only collision says as much.
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I think the sword breaking feat is all we need here imo.. Dabra materializes a sword out of nowhere catching Gohan off guard, and also has all of the momentum going his way. Gohan manages to not only stop the sword cold, but break it in half too. Pretty hard to accomplish that if you're weaker than Dabra.

Goku also keeps it pretty ambiguous by saying "it's not like he's completely losing". He looked bad due to being rusty and not having fought seriously in 7 years. His power advantage however was clear.
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Yu Narukami
Mar 31 2017, 05:29 PM
It's because he wasn't trying to use his spit throughout. If spitting and then breaking them would transfer the energy, it's his best move and he'd have to be a fool to not constantly try it throughout the fight.
It's like saying Goku is a fool for not using the Instant Transmission Kamehameha numerous times throughout all his fights because it's his best move.

Not only would it have made Dabra an even more forgetful character than he already was were he to have done nothing beyond spitting, but it probably requires an element of surprise to work - much like the other move I mentioned. Simply removing their clothes counters it when they know what's going on, so it's hardly a sure win, and wouldn't help much if his opponent completely outclassed him.

As I already pointed out, Dabra also moved right on to his next attack after spitting, so it's hardly something he can or was desperately banking on to win the fight.

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What was keeping Gohan in the fight, then? He doesn't have a stamina advantage, he doesn't have a skill advantage, and now he apparently doesn't have a power advantage. Apart from Dabra's idiocy, why was Gohan able to keep up and survive?
The same thing that was keeping Goku in his disadvantaged fight against Cell? Having enough skill, stamina, and power in whatever quanitities to fight their opponent, even if they're not winning or will eventually lose..?

Pyrus
 
Gohan did have a skill advantage. That's why Dabura relied on his magic rather than fighting straight up. Their only collision says as much.
I think that's possible, but Dabra did fake him out and hit him with a blast, so that shows a decent amount of skill and makes their actual hits one-all.

Mightn't it be more fair to just say that Dabra fights with magic, since he has it, rather than he had to rely on it? I don't see any indication of desperation in him.

Plus, Gohan looks more concerned before the blast connected than Dabra did even after he got kicked, and Gohan emerged with a face of anger and/or stress - something Dabra never displays in this fight. Gohan never smiles, while Dabra grins frequently and even listens to a conversation, looking away mid-fight, while Gohan is focused and serious through-out and often sweating.

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I think the sword breaking feat is all we need here imo.. Dabra materializes a sword out of nowhere catching Gohan off guard, and also has all of the momentum going his way. Gohan manages to not only stop the sword cold, but break it in half too. Pretty hard to accomplish that if you're weaker than Dabra.
Gohan doesn't overpower him, though - he has the power to stop his swing—because he's pretty damn strong still and in line for losing his life—then snaps the sword sideways. A decent feat no doubt, but that's not the same as overpowering Dabra himself. It's as if he had to snap it to save Dabra forcing it down on him.

And, again, Dabra looks mildly disappointed at best, while Gohan is hunched somewhat as if catching his breath and sweating.

It seems as clear to me as it seems to Goku and Vegeta that Gohan isn't winning for whatever reason you want to boil it down to - but it's not like he's completely losing. They're rivals, with Dabra having an edge.
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Gohan doesn't overpower him, though - he has the power to stop his swing—because he's pretty damn strong still and in line for losing his life—then snaps the sword sideways. A decent feat no doubt, but that's not the same as overpowering Dabra himself. It's as if he had to snap it to save Dabra forcing it down on him.

And, again, Dabra looks mildly disappointed at best, while Gohan is hunched somewhat as if catching his breath and sweating.

It seems as clear to me as it seems to Goku and Vegeta that Gohan isn't winning for whatever reason you want to boil it down to - but it's not like he's completely losing. They're rivals, with Dabra having an edge.

That's fine. I recognize this is a debate that has several ways of interpreting it. I'm not vehemently opposed to your train of thought, but I don't see it that way myself.

I personally view stopping the sword to be the main part of the feat. He's stopping something incredibly narrow which had to be gripped awkwardly so he could avoid having his hands cut off. Even still he stops it in its tracks while exerting full effort. Dabra had all of the force going his way, and Gohan stopped it right there with an awkward grip. I see it as the deciding feat to determine who is physically stronger.

Gohan being out of breath can be explained by his lack of conditioning imo. You can also say that his "mastery" of the Super Saiyan form has gotten worse after not using the form much for 7 years, so there could be some minor stamina loss to accompany it, while Dabra is essentially fighting in Base.

I think Vegeta is mostly pissed off because he doesn't give a s*** about any of what's going on, he wanted to get out of there to battle Goku. Seeing Gohan look like a retard due to lack of training drove him nuts because he was taking up unnecessary time.
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