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Why did Piccolo withdraw in the fight against Kaioshin?
Topic Started: Mar 15 2017, 05:57 AM (1,611 Views)
ahill1
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It's said in the Daizenshuu that the reason of why Piccolo did this was due to realizing there was a tremendous gap between his powers and Kaioshin's:

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Do you think this is accurate? If no, do you think Piccolo withdraw solely by the reason of suspecting Shin was Dai Kaio?
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

He couldn't sense Shin's power, he only assumed he had great power because he accurately suspected he was the Lord of Lords.
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+ Kaboom
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Everything out there says it's because Piccolo realized that Kaioshin was stronger than him, just like he said, so... it's because Piccolo realized that Kaioshin was stronger than him, just like he said.

It probably was just based on intuition about Kaioshin's identity, but if that means Piccolo knows about the godly hierarchy and how strong the Grand Kaio is supposed to be (and then that the Kaioshin is supposed to be even stronger), then there's really no reason to doubt him on it. Especially not when every other source, like the guidebook bit posted and various bios for Kaioshin, just flat-out confirm "yes, Piccolo was right, Kaioshin was stronger than him."

Retroactively, it could also be partially chalked up to the intense "pressure" that folks with godly ki can impose on people, even if their power still can't be accurately sensed and measured.
Edited by Kaboom, Mar 15 2017, 03:35 PM.
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I Yoeri

Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 03:33 PM
Everything out there says it's because Piccolo realized that Kaioshin was stronger than him, just like he said, so... it's because Piccolo realized that Kaioshin was stronger than him, just like he said.

It probably was just based on intuition about Kaioshin's identity, but if that means Piccolo knows about the godly hierarchy and how strong the Grand Kaio is supposed to be (and then that the Kaioshin is supposed to be even stronger), then there's really no reason to doubt him on it. Especially not when every other source, like the guidebook bit posted and various bios for Kaioshin, just flat-out confirm "yes, Piccolo was right, Kaioshin was stronger than him."

Retroactively, it could also be partially chalked up to the intense "pressure" that folks with godly ki can impose on people, even if their power still can't be accurately sensed and measured.
The problem with guidebooks is that it sometimes contradicts what's being written in the manga. I realize that Piccolo says that "Shin is much stronger" than himself, but if that was the case, he'd be much weaker than Base Saiyans aswell seeing as Kaioshin's reactions in Babidi's ship indicates they are stronger than him. That's such a huge leap from Cell Games when Gohan is even implied to be weaker than he was back then.

I don't buy it, I don't think Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin. I think it's just a bad read.
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ahill1
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I agree with Emmeth here. Reading that sequence again, it really doesn't seem Piccolo withdraw upon sensing a big gap between their powers. If he just sensed a big gap between their powers, then he sure wouldn't give up, considering he entered the tournament already expecting to fight people stronger than him (e.g Goku and Gohan).

Piccolo seems to be handicapped before Kaioshin, mentioning "what a foe this is", "who is this man?". He doesn't make notice of how strong Kaioshin is, he isn't even sure who Kaioshin is. Then, when Kaioshin reads his mind, he gives up.

Then, we have a very important line, said by Shin: "he used to be this planet's God, he must have sensed who I am", reinforcing that the main thing there, was Piccolo in doubt about Kaioshin's identity. In fact, the first thing Piccolo did after the "match" was ask if Kaioshin were the Great Lord of Worlds, further evidencing that that was the main case (or the only one) for Piccolo's surrender.

He pretty much saying to Goku and the others that Kaioshin >>> him might be only a way to kind of not have to enter in specifics about Shin's status, something he had yet to confirm for himself. Piccolo isn't completely sure what happened there at the match.

Vegeta also said they weren't able to estimate how strong Kaioshin was, so it's pretty doubtful if Piccolo could either:


Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”


If Piccolo concluded Kaioshin is above him based on his nature, then it's possible he just overestimated him "based on his nature", like did Vegeta later:


Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”


So Daizenshuu's explanation that Piccolo withdraw from the match based on the gap between their powers seems pretty off context-wise to me, and isn't what we get when analyzing the whole thing IMO.

Edited by ahill1, Mar 15 2017, 09:33 PM.
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Maybe Piccolo thought East Kaioshin was supposed to be like Majin Boo tier power, which does make sense for the others, just not East Kaioshin himself.
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ahill1
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Yeah, Ksioshin is implied to be pretty weak by Kaioshin's standard, then maybe he just thought Kaioshin was way stronger than himself based on Kaioshin's general power (it's even said by Toriyama that Kaioshins use to be > Makaioshin), without realizing East Kaioshin was all that.

But I still think Piccolo said "their dimensions were too different" since Goku's question was pertaining power and that was the common answer without having to go in specifics about whether Kaioshin is Dai Kaio or not.
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Y'know, there's really no clash between "Piccolo quit because his opponent was stronger" and "Piccolo quit because his opponent was a high-ranking god," so why force a choice between just one or the other? Like I said, they go hand-in-hand — if Piccolo knows the god rankings, then he'd certainly be justified in expecting someone like the Grand Kaio to be stronger than him. The guidebooks don't go against anything shown or suggested in the manga here, all they do is confirm what Piccolo actually already said. When both the dialogue and the guidebooks say the exact same thing, why go against it?

As for the notion of Kaioshin's behavior in Bobbidi's ship suggesting he's weaker than the base Saiyans... that's been discussed a million times over, but suffice to say there's nothing actually requiring that to be the case. All of what Kaioshin said and did can easily be blamed on a shortcoming in character, rather than power.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 27 2017, 03:17 AM.
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ahill1
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"Kaboom"
 
The guidebooks don't go against anything shown or suggested in the manga here, all they do is confirm, "yup, Piccolo WAS outclassed by Kaioshin just like he thought."

I'd kind say it goes, considering the Guidebook stated Piccolo withdraw due to a large gap between their power and nothing more. The context here seems to pain a different picture on the matter, where Piccolo isn't sure what's happening "who is this man?" and the first thing he does after the match was confirm his suspicious.

Not to mention that Piccolo wouldn't really withdraw from the match under the justification of being rather outclassed, like I said. He already knew Goku, Gohan would participate, and we both agree Piccolo isn't still at Cell Games Goku's level, let alone someone way stronger than it.

The thing I'm saying here that clashes with the manga isn't Kaioshin being >>> him, but the justification of why Piccolo called a day and withdraw.
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Mar 15 2017, 09:44 PM
Y'know, there's really no clash between "Piccolo quit because his opponent was stronger" and "Piccolo quit because his opponent was a high-ranking god," so why force a choice between just one or the other? Like I said, they got hand-in-hand — if Piccolo knows the god rankings, then he'd certainly be justified in expecting someone like the Grand Kaio to be stronger than him. The guidebooks don't go against anything shown or suggested in the manga here, all they do is confirm what Piccolo actually already said. When both the dialogue and the guidebooks say the exact same thing, why go against it?

As for the notion of Kaioshin's behavior in Bobbidi's ship suggesting he's weaker than the base Saiyans... that's been discussed a million times over, but suffice to say there's nothing actually requiring that to be the case. All of what Kaioshin said and did can easily be blamed on a shortcoming in character, rather than power.
I can subscribe to two different perspectives; One where Base Saiyans never surpass Freeza and one where they easily do.

If Base Saiyans never surpass Freeza, it's safe to say Kaioshin is stronger. Nothing, like you said, indicates he is weaker than Base Saiyans, just when they transform.

However, if Base Saiyans do surpass Freeza, is much more difficult to believe Kaioshin is stronger than Base Saiyan, let alone Piccolo.


In both cases, it's still unlikely Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin because of the latter's behaviour in Babidi's ship. Even Vegeta points out that Kaioshin doesn't seem as powerful as his reputation say he is.
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I sort of take Piccolo's withdrawing from the contest as being due to him feeling that it wouldn't be respectful to attack him.
Edited by Delicieuxz, Mar 16 2017, 01:36 AM.
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SSJ
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Kaioshin >>> Piccolo. Boo couldn't tank his attack, and Kaioshin is stronger than the Base Saiyans.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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Kaboom
Mar 15 2017, 09:44 PM
All of what Kaioshin said and did can easily be blamed on a shortcoming in character, rather than power.
He seemed more so concerned with walking into a trap, seeing as they all did waltz directly into Babidi's magical ship.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I think one of the deciding factors of Kaioshin being stronger is Piccolo's own notion to Goku.

Once Piccolo gives up, Goku is basically like "He's that strong?" Not exactly those usage of words but Goku's clearly asking if Kaioshin is stronger and Piccolo admits to that. Goku doesn't recognize the importance of deities. He is clearly asking a question based on strength and power as is typical of Goku and getting admittance to the fact by Piccolo.

It helps also that throughout the series, people make their presence known from their strength. You know, God/Kami wasn't revered because he was a god, it was because he was (at the time at least) strong. He was stronger than Popo who was stronger than King Piccolo. People didn't fear Freeza because he had an iron grip over the galaxy. It was because he was naturally strong. Even a straight up God like Beerus is admired because of his intimidating power and not so much because of his purpose.

If Piccolo was only concerned about Kaioshin's status, his reaction should've been far more subtle and respectable. He doesn't have to look like he's going to piss himself in fear. He can show a little surprise and then step back. He can explain to everyone that this guy is one of the most important people in the universe and show that admiration for him. There is no reason I feel to make Piccolo break down in what almost looks like fear over a guy that Piccolo isn't even entirely sure is a god.

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ahill1
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Vegeta's later statement of "By his nature, he [kaioshin] is supposed to be someone incredible..." makes me think the gap Piccolo made it out to be with the "our dimensions are too different" is larger than it really needs to be. But thinking again, Piccolo thought he was the Dai Kaio, not Kaioshin. Even if Kaioshin is pretty weak by Kaioshin's standards, I don't think he should be weaker than Dai Kaio or something.

If we go with the "Piccolo thought the gap between their powers was tremendous due to Shin's nature", then we'd have something like "Kaioshin > Dai Kaio (what piccolo expected to be) >>>>>> Piccolo.
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