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Was gohan really ssj2 against dabura?
Topic Started: Mar 1 2017, 01:21 PM (3,519 Views)
+ Sandy Shore
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While an amusing analogy that soon loses its lustre—killed by the time you do it the disservice of dissecting it—it fails to account for the human error and intention that is inherent to this debate. Lions and tigers aren't created by a person with seemingly contradictory ideas about whether they're meant to be lions or tigers at that moment in time by way of how they look and what is said about them.

No one questions that Gohan doesn't look like a Super Saiyan 2. He doesn't. What I want to know is when and where this supposed rule was concocted that the art trumps everything else without question.

Where is it decreed that images hold more intent than words?
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+ Sandy Shore
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I see you failed to register my point about how you failed to account for human intention and error by making the exact same fallacious analogy with fruit.

Some of us live for the written word, and images come second or possibly third.

Edit:- is repeating the same inelegant analogies and then making them even trashier with edits your thing or something?
Edited by Sandy Shore, Mar 9 2017, 10:54 PM.
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...

Kaboom
Mar 9 2017, 10:03 PM
Imagine you're at a zoo. This particular zoo doesn't have any tigers, but they DO have a pretty popular lion exhibit. The average guest to the zoo, even the kids, typically know the lions right away when they see them. The zoo has signs and plaques around with info about the lions. The zoo's employees give fun little lectures about the lions on guided tours.

Now imagine you're there viewing the lion exhibit, when some random person approaches and says to you, "they're not really lions, you know. They're actually tigers."

"What are you talking about? They're pretty obviously lions."

"Nope. Tigers are cooler than lions, this other zoo I visited has tigers, and there's no reason for this zoo NOT to have tigers, so these must be tigers. I mean, it wouldn't make any sense for this zoo to NOT be as good as it possible can by having tigers, right?"

"But you can tell just from looking at them that they're lions, not tigers."

"Oh, really? How is that?"

"Well the most obvious way is that tigers have stripes and lions don't."

"What, ONLY tigers can have stripes? What about zebras? Don't the zebras get to have stripes too?"

"No, I didn't say that, just that it's the easiest trait of-"

"And what, ALL tigers have to have stripes ALL the time?"

"Well I think sometimes there's some genetic mishaps, but still like 999 out of 1,000 tigers ha-"

"Aha! Gotcha there! Since you can't prove that all tigers have stripes 100% of the time, then you can't prove that these are lions instead of tigers! I think this zoo should have tigers instead of just lions, so I say they're tigers!"

"...Are you on drugs?"






The zoo's average guests, who know tigers from lions just by looking, represent the manga's intended demographic of children and preteens.

The signs about the lions represent the various bits of guidebook information both about Super Saiyan 2's traits (lightning being listed among them in at least the GT Perfect Files) and when Gohan used the form in each version of the story.

The employees giving guided tours about the lions represent Toriyama actually having Goku demonstrate SS1 and SS2 to visually distinguish them in the manga, for both us and Majin Boo.

Finally, the confused patron wondering if the other guy's on drugs represents how I feel every time this topic comes up and people seem bizarrely incapable of simply recognizing what's drawn right there on the page in front of their noses.


Q: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra in the Dragon Ball manga?
A: No, because he wasn't drawn as one.

Badabing, badaboom. I don't think I'll ever understand why the discussion ever goes beyond that. The whys or hows of Gohan not being Super Saiyan 2 are just irrelevant fluff on top of it.
Again toriyama fogot to draw lightnibgs or heck even aura for ssj2 vegeta on some panels. The fight between dabra and gohan was brief.
and all of the quotes implies that he was very well ssj2 it just doesnt make sense if he would be only ssj

Posted Image
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

A panel without lightning or aura doesn't mean a form doesn't require these traits. That's what consistency is, a trait that appearance constantly the vast majority of the time. Gohan fought Dabura through several panels and not once did he claim any of the consistent traits with the SSJ2 form.

Vegeta however, despite may missing an aura or bolt in a panel or two was consistently shown with the traits through his tenure.
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Pointer
Mar 10 2017, 11:55 AM
Kaboom
Mar 9 2017, 10:03 PM
Imagine you're at a zoo. This particular zoo doesn't have any tigers, but they DO have a pretty popular lion exhibit. The average guest to the zoo, even the kids, typically know the lions right away when they see them. The zoo has signs and plaques around with info about the lions. The zoo's employees give fun little lectures about the lions on guided tours.

Now imagine you're there viewing the lion exhibit, when some random person approaches and says to you, "they're not really lions, you know. They're actually tigers."

"What are you talking about? They're pretty obviously lions."

"Nope. Tigers are cooler than lions, this other zoo I visited has tigers, and there's no reason for this zoo NOT to have tigers, so these must be tigers. I mean, it wouldn't make any sense for this zoo to NOT be as good as it possible can by having tigers, right?"

"But you can tell just from looking at them that they're lions, not tigers."

"Oh, really? How is that?"

"Well the most obvious way is that tigers have stripes and lions don't."

"What, ONLY tigers can have stripes? What about zebras? Don't the zebras get to have stripes too?"

"No, I didn't say that, just that it's the easiest trait of-"

"And what, ALL tigers have to have stripes ALL the time?"

"Well I think sometimes there's some genetic mishaps, but still like 999 out of 1,000 tigers ha-"

"Aha! Gotcha there! Since you can't prove that all tigers have stripes 100% of the time, then you can't prove that these are lions instead of tigers! I think this zoo should have tigers instead of just lions, so I say they're tigers!"

"...Are you on drugs?"






The zoo's average guests, who know tigers from lions just by looking, represent the manga's intended demographic of children and preteens.

The signs about the lions represent the various bits of guidebook information both about Super Saiyan 2's traits (lightning being listed among them in at least the GT Perfect Files) and when Gohan used the form in each version of the story.

The employees giving guided tours about the lions represent Toriyama actually having Goku demonstrate SS1 and SS2 to visually distinguish them in the manga, for both us and Majin Boo.

Finally, the confused patron wondering if the other guy's on drugs represents how I feel every time this topic comes up and people seem bizarrely incapable of simply recognizing what's drawn right there on the page in front of their noses.


Q: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra in the Dragon Ball manga?
A: No, because he wasn't drawn as one.

Badabing, badaboom. I don't think I'll ever understand why the discussion ever goes beyond that. The whys or hows of Gohan not being Super Saiyan 2 are just irrelevant fluff on top of it.
Again toriyama fogot to draw lightnibgs or heck even aura for ssj2 vegeta on some panels. The fight between dabra and gohan was brief.
and all of the quotes implies that he was very well ssj2 it just doesnt make sense if he would be only ssj
Vegeta was missing lightning in his aura (or an aura altogether) for less than a handful of panels throughout his entire ordeal with Majin Boo. Gohan was missing lightning in his aura for an entire fight, which was brief but still an important fight.
Spoiler: click to toggle
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SSJ
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Reasons for Gohan being Super Saiyan

The Art


SSJ Gohan:

Spoiler: click to toggle



SSJ 2 Gohan:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Notice Gohan differentiates between the forms here. We can clearly see the changes in the art. Gohan has more luscious hair, lightning, and a much sharper aura. This stays consistent with when Goku and Vegeta use Super Saiyan 2.

SSJ 2 Gohan?:

Spoiler: click to toggle


Clear change in art style here. This is chapter 261. Take a look at Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan 2 THREE chapters later within the same volume in chapter 264.

Spoiler: click to toggle


You can clearly see Vegeta changing from SSJ1 to SSJ2 here. The aura changes, to match what SSJ2 Gohan and Goku have both shown as well. So why would Gohan be drawn differently? Even 1 chapter later in 265 when Gohan transforms to fight Dabra again, he clearly displays the Super Saiyan aura.

Why Can't Gohan Transform Again?

Posted Image

To begin, Goku states that it took him time to be able to transform into Super Saiyan at will post Namek, and after a lot of practice he was able to do it at will.

What do we know about SSJ2? For Gohan at least, rage triggered his initial transformation against Cell - it was the direct catalyst causing the transformation. Gohan spent 7 years lounging around doing f*** all, and by the way Vegeta speaks to him it seems apparent that Gohan did pretty well no training after the Cell Games. I believe it's safe to say Gohan only used SSJ2 twice prior, both times against Cell. He doesn't seem to be able to use it at will in the Boo arc unless he is angry/enraged. The scan of SSJ Gohan I posted earlier shows that he was pretty damn enraged when :b*** was sodomizing his girl, and he still seemed pissed as f*** against Kibito. It served enough of a catalyst to let him transform.

Later on, Goku directly tells Gohan to get mad after watching him fail to turn SSJ2 in his first round against Dabra. Goku seems to see it too, and Gohan also knows that he can pull out a hell of a lot more power against Dabra and Boo, but he doesn't have the rage factor to let him pull it out. Should he have practiced controlling the form during the 7 years, he could have been able to use it at will as Goku and Vegeta could.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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Funny how Gohan was still drawn as a Super Saiyan in the same chapters that Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were fighting.

I don't disagree that it makes more sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan 2, though.
Edited by Saiyan Paladin, Mar 10 2017, 08:32 PM.
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Paladin
Mar 10 2017, 08:24 PM
Funny how Gohan was still drawn as a weakened Super Saiyan 2 in the same chapters that Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were fighting.

I don't disagree that it makes more sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan 2, though.
Fixed for you.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Quote:
 
1) No one speaks as if Gohan was a regular Super Saiyan while fighting Dabra, but actually as if he were a Super Saiyan 2. They act as if he is incapable of beating Dabra, though not as a mere Super Saiyan, but incapable in general. Faced with his eventual defeat, they never suggest he turn Super Saiyan 2 and end the fight instantly, nor give any hint or question that he can't, but instead the suggestion made is for someone else to step in to finish the fight he ostensibly has no way of winning himself.


Except they kind of do. Throughout the entire battle with Dabura and Boo, Gohan is constantly treated as having an issue with his rage. When Goku outright tells him to get as mad as he did against Cell (which where he went Super Saiyan 2 the first time) Gohan can't. We literally see the likes of SSj2 Vegeta and Goku duking it out while Gohan shares none of these characters. We'll keep addressing this point if we have to.

What makes Gohan so special that he can get away with having literally none of the traits while everyone else does. Or are we to proclaim that Gohan is such a s***ty SSj2 tier character that his strongest form only matches up to the power of his regular SSj form? Because goddamn Gohan and Dabura, you two really do suck.

Quote:
 
2) Dabra himself is SSJ2-tier according to what is said. Goku compares him to Cell, and anyone that's ever made a comparison between one person's ability and another's would understand this to mean that person as they were best or most recently known to the one making the comparison - unless specified otherwise. It wasn't.
We might suppose Goku doesn't mean Super Perfect Cell because he either, A) doesn't consider that the same thing as Cell for some inexplicable reason, or, B) never felt his power due to him being dead, even though he felt Gohan's and said it was absolutely enough to overpower Cell if he didn't hold back, which is proven true considering Gohan is repeatedly used as the benchmark of power in this arc and not Cell's—though let's go with it for the sake of argument—but there's absolutely no excuse for why Goku wasn't talking about Cell after he displayed his full power. He unquestionably felt and witnessed it, and that is, without doubt, how strong Cell was if we are to somehow omit his Super-self.


Except he's not. It's enough to reference Dabura in comparison to what we actually see. That is him fighting SSJ Gohan. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only thing Goku says is that seven years ago, Dabura would've been a frightening opponent. The Cell who fought Goku alone was literally the second strongest character in the series next to Gohan himself.

Your argument stems from the point where the series has to follow your ideology instead of the other way around. If someone reads Goku's line as Dabura~Perfect Cell or Zenkai Perfect Cell and then gets to Gohan vs Dabura, this should address them to rethink their evaluation. It isn't Gohan shares none of the traits because it's the wrong style, it's reader's initial evaluation that needs to be reconsidered.



Quote:
 
3) There's no way even the strongest version of Super Saiyan Gohan would have fought well against any version of Cell that Goku's comparison implies, let alone his weaker, teenaged-self. It follows, then, that he certainly wouldn't have been able to do as well as he did against an opponent even stronger than that without using Super Saiyan 2.


SSJ Kid Gohan was powerful enough to basically tank everything Cell threw at him. Beyond being caught off guard by his increased speed, Gohan took all the attacks Cell chucked at him without losing ki. Where people though Cell had killed Gohan, the kid just walks out with only minor scratches on him. It's easy to have Dabura around the Cell who fought Goku...with a bit of an edge when magic is involved considering the statements Goku made later.

With a significant gap already put on between Kid Gohan and Goku, it's easy enough to have Gohan around his father's level at the time of the Cell Games and have Dabura with a bit of an edge as implied through the fight. Goku says that Gohan's not "completely losing."

Quote:
 
4) Gohan is never shown or mentioned to have any problem turning Super Saiyan 2 at will. He did it upon request at the tournament, despite not being angry—see how he playfully smiled and waved when entering the ring—and Goku never says anger is required for the transformation itself, but only that he needed to get angry to, quote: "draw out all of the power [he has]".


Except now he does and what happened at the Budokai isn't what's happening now at Babidi's ship. we have literally everyone showing off their SSJ2, hell when Gohan does transform at the budokai, he shares every trait imaginable, even containing some of his own egotistical traits of himself when he first transforms.
---
---

It's spectacular that Gohan can show all these traits a couple of chapters ago have everyone show these traits before and after. Adult Gohan against Dabura is literally the only character who doesn't show these traits despite apparently being one. It's like all the SSj2 characters were in the lounge wearing suits and kicking back and then Gohan walks in wearing an elephant costume.

Adult Gohan: Yeah guys! Let's get this party started! Yo Veggie! You up for a swag game of Marco Polo brother?

Vegeta: What the f*** is wrong with him Kakarot?
---
---

And to add to some other points like Dabura's confidence and stuff.

I want you to make a list of all the things Dabura has said...and I want you to check off a list of how many of them Dabura was outright proven wrong on.

1.) Proclaims that Piccolo is trash. Now this is for the PIccolo>Base Saiyans people, for those who don't follow that...good job Dabura...1 point.

2.) Proclaimed Super Saiyan Goku was just glowing....he was not.

3.) Thought he was going to take everyone out, even going as far as to tell Babidi not to worry. He struggles with the weakest of the Saiyans and has to be called out on not doing enough damage by Babidi.

4.) Calls Gohan trash and says he'll be able to take him on...says the guy who had to resort to sneak attacks, had his sword broken and literally couldn't do enough damage to the guy as stated by Babidi.

5.) Called Majin Boo trash. Where Gohan at least recognized Boo's level of threat, Dabura came in thinking he was hot s*** and got casually eaten as a result.

I mean there's one thing to be cocky but when at least 90% of your trash talk is proven wrong...it's really hard to take something Dabura says seriously.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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Pyrus
Mar 10 2017, 08:39 PM
Paladin
Mar 10 2017, 08:24 PM
Funny how Gohan was still drawn as a weakened Super Saiyan 2 in the same chapters that Super Saiyan 2 Majin Vegeta and Super Saiyan 2 Goku were fighting.

I don't disagree that it makes more sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan 2, though.
Fixed for you.
How could I have forgotten that when a Super Saiyan 2 has gotten weaker it looks identical to Super Saiyan? Posted Image

Edited by Saiyan Paladin, Mar 11 2017, 05:41 AM.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Something worth mentioning is that Super Saiyan 2 seems to have a more detailed and sharper aura. There's more "feathery" and straight streaks in it than in Super Saiyan, which looks more like steady fire.
That aura of Gohan flying upward could simply be explained by him flying upward.

And that black haired version... he technically hadn't fully transformed yet, therefore he wasn't actually SSj2.

Perhaps that's a clue to finally put the dead horse to rest.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 11 2017, 08:28 PM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
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EMIYA
 
Your argument stems from the point where the series has to follow your ideology instead of the other way around.
Not at all.

I myself have not been saying Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, or finding the contrary opinion somehow strange and ludicrous; I've merely been pointing out the conflicting portrayal Toriyama himself has introduced. How is that up for debate?

Toriyama himself has drawn a picture of a lion, and then proceeded to write about ithimself—as though it were a tiger. Drawing and writing both holding his own intent - the conflicting information wasn't introduced by some shady onlooker with a nebulous agenda as the referenced analogy seems to pretend, but the creator themselves. How are we to conclusively discern then whether he wanted to create a lion or a tiger during those moments?

Ask the man himself if we could? Highly creative though he is, we all know he's an incompetent fool when it comes to what's what in his own universe.

It's the firm adherents of the "Absolutely Was a Regular Super Saiyan" camp that appear to have an ideology. Seemingly an absolute insistence that what is drawn is absolutely more correct than the numerous things that are written... based on... well, nothing.

You're then trying to bend what is said of Gohan and Dabra to fit the way the former is drawn, but it's like sticking a rhombus in to a rectangular hole. You can do it with enough wiggling, but it's not an appropriate fit. I'm simply pointing out the shapes aren't a match, and claiming authority over which one was cut wrong is pompous, while claiming that they're exactly the same shape is just silly.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Mar 12 2017, 09:08 PM.
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Some of us live for the written word, and images come second or possibly third.

The written word is certainly important, but in the case of something like a comic book, the art should be regarded at the same level as the writing. Since the written word cannot provide a solid answer one way or the other, we're forced to look to the art.

Toriyama is certainly incompetent at times, but he's a great artist (minus some small inconsistencies here and there). Giving Gohan a lightning aura even in just a panel or two would have required minimal effort, and since he didn't even bother to do that much, we have to assume that his intent was for Gohan to be a regular Super Saiyan during the fight. Had we been given more hints in the dialogue that Gohan was a SSJ2, we could have discredited the lack of lightning as just an artistic flaw, but we don't even have that much dialogue to go off of, so we're forced to trust the art. Other members have already addressed the dialogue, so I don't feel the need to go into too much detail on what I think it means.

It's not that I agree whole-heartedly with one camp or the other, but I can't confidently say that Gohan was SSJ2 when both the dialogue and the art contradict this, you feel?

That being said, I don't think that it would be too difficult for a regular Super Saiyan Gohan to go toe-to-toe with Dabura for a minute. SSJ Kid Gohan managed to fend off Perfect Cell before he went SSJ2. In fact, his fight with Perfect Cell prior to transforming was very similar to his fight with Dabura.
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ahill1
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I see both point of views and I agree with both by an extent. I'm pretty confident Gohan was a SSJ1 though, just because the writing in the spaceship seems so fishy and so lazy that I think the art is the closest thing to Toriyama's intent.

Talking about Dabura, I think his main purpose is to show how a Cell level enemy stands up to everyone now (with it being no big deal for Goku and Vegeta [both which were outclassed by said power 7 years ago] and it now being a big deal for Gohan, whom shouldn't have this much trouble with this sort of enemy seven years ago). I think that was basically AT's intent with the whole Dabura's mess, to show how the old enemy wasn't now much compared to Goku, Vegeta and the possible new foe (Majin Boo).

I personally think such intent would fit a lot better if Dabura were meant to be at least full power Perfect Cell level (we may excuse SPC since he apparently has powers rivaling SSJ2 Gohan, a fellow who Vegeta was still a bit behind until having his powers unlocked). Granted, I think Toriyama led such intent bad portraying Gohan as a SSJ1, while it'd be better led by portraying Gohan as a SSJ2. I don't deny his intentions were making Gohan a SSJ1 (even if by that he had to contradict [or ignore] some of the Budokai's events), but I think he just didn't think/care with the "but a weakened SSJ wouldn't be able to face some Cell-level opponent, since a stronger wasn't able" and just did him a SSJ1 due to fitting better with Goku and Vegeta's showcase of SSJ2 later and it being a big deal (even the way Gohan talks about dad and Vegeta fighting at a level above the SSJ kind implies it isn't something he is doing at that moment, or even did some moments ago, for that matter).

So yeah, there's some sort of "changing writing" or "retcon" made by Toriyama in relation to the 25th Budokai happenings, and assuming such thing (saying AT took a different route compared to the Tournament), could explain/ or hand wave some points raised by OMG, but even so we have still to consider the Dabura ~ Cell implication, which makes the SSJ2 side a better one story-wise, even if that wasn't AT's intentions, which are screwed either way.
Edited by ahill1, Mar 13 2017, 08:42 PM.
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ahill1
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Get off here Super Saiyan!!!
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