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Was gohan really ssj2 against dabura?
Topic Started: Mar 1 2017, 01:21 PM (3,520 Views)
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Pyrus
Mar 6 2017, 10:17 PM
Paladin
Mar 6 2017, 09:12 PM
He's drawn as a Super Saiyan, there's no real getting around that. Why would Toriyama just randomly forget to draw him as a SS2? He literally has Goku explain all the forms not that long after Gohan's fight with Dabra.
There's at least a little validity to Super Saiyan 2 wavering in its ferocity. Ignoring blatant examples of Toriyama simply forgetting to add in lightning or choosing not to due to panel space, there are some times where a Super Saiyan 2 exists without lightning in the manga, such as Vegeta after he knocks out Goku. But otherwise, yeah, Super Saiyan 2 is 98% of the time accompanied by lightning in the aura.

Though to be fair, it's kind of weird for Vegeta to have "enough" power to maintain lightning while he's knocking Goku out, but then immediately after, he loses the lightning and his aura dampens into a regular Super Saiyan aura.

I can see why some would try and claim "well, Gohan's just a very weak Super Saiyan 2 in comparison to Goku and Vegeta so Toriyama chose to make him look pathetic while they look badass," even though I don't think that line of reasoning has much merit personally.

An example of a blatant Super Saiyan 2 not having lightning for whatever reason in a single panel, on the same page as him having lightning as well. And again, no lightning. He doesn't even have an aura here.
Ir maybe it is not him who is weak but dabra is stronger if he is around perfect cell tier and gohan used a weakened ssj2 i have no problem sayin he had problem with dabura

Yes he looks like an ssj but the quote from vegeta and goku claim to say otherwise

"He was stronger in the cell games than he is now"

"DONT rush vegeta he can do it "


Why did vegeta compare cg ssj2 gohan to a gohan who is just ssj

Did vegeta do the math and calculate in his hand that even if gohan eas ssj his ssj2 is weaker than his cg ssj2 was ?
I doubt it
Also goku commented that dabra is stronger than he thought but they said they could very well still beaten him implying vegeta's ssj2 >DABRA

Edited by Pointer, Mar 7 2017, 12:01 PM.

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ahill1
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I Banged Sam
 
People arguing SSJ2 Teen Gohan not having lightning because he is weak are implying he is using less than half power

Gohan had no aura when he was less than half though. The aura with lightning only reappeared when he charged the KMHMH, to which he was probably already above half power.

EMIYA
 
Goku even remarks that Gohan needs to get angry like he did against Cell (which is where he obtained the transformation) but Gohan just can't.

Agreed, but maybe it's worth noting that Goku probably wasn't referring to just SSJ2 as Gohan's angry, but probably also some sort of boost on top of it, as he said there'd be no one who can stop Gohan when he drawns out his true power, which wouldn't be true if he were talking solely about SSJ2.
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The Hill is right. Gohan didn't have an aura post-Cell blast until Goku got him back into a better state of mind. Damn. That throws a wrench into this all.
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SSJ
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Conjecture ahill. Where did he say he was above half when he flared his aura? Big Green still said his ki was trash compared to Cell's.
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I can't tell the difference. :rofl:
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SSJ
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I'm Asian, so I can't tell the difference.
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ahill1
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I don't think it's conjecture, since chi is also influenced by a one's state of mind. When Gohan stated his chi was less than half he was pretty unmotivated, and Goku's speech made him recover his will to fight. Also, if Gohan were at ~50% of Cell's power, I'd imagine he'd be f***ed by the KMHMH like Perfect Cell was earlier, when Gohan made a KMHMH to counter Cell's.

In the midle of the KMHMH clash, Goku said "Gohan STILL isn't putting out all his power", which implies he is already putting more power than his less than half one.
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ahill1
Mar 8 2017, 06:15 AM
I don't think it's conjecture, since chi is also influenced by a one's state of mind. When Gohan stated his chi was less than half he was pretty unmotivated, and Goku's speech made him recover his will to fight. Also, if Gohan were at ~50% of Cell's power, I'd imagine he'd be f***ed by the KMHMH like Perfect Cell was earlier, when Gohan made a KMHMH to counter Cell's.

In the midle of the KMHMH clash, Goku said "Gohan STILL isn't putting out all his power", which implies he is already putting more power than his less than half one.
Do you think Cell was going all-out with his Kamehameha at first?
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yes it was a metaphor for premature ejaculation
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ahill1
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Pyrus
Mar 8 2017, 06:26 AM
ahill1
Mar 8 2017, 06:15 AM
I don't think it's conjecture, since chi is also influenced by a one's state of mind. When Gohan stated his chi was less than half he was pretty unmotivated, and Goku's speech made him recover his will to fight. Also, if Gohan were at ~50% of Cell's power, I'd imagine he'd be f***ed by the KMHMH like Perfect Cell was earlier, when Gohan made a KMHMH to counter Cell's.

In the midle of the KMHMH clash, Goku said "Gohan STILL isn't putting out all his power", which implies he is already putting more power than his less than half one.
Do you think Cell was going all-out with his Kamehameha at first?
Well now that you mention it, I don't think he was going all out. Chi-wise I think he was at his maximum, but he was holding back a little in the "push" imo.
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Kyouks
Mar 7 2017, 07:15 AM
I dunno why this is even up for debate :toj:

http://i.imgur.com/4QZtfl8.png
Have you just subbed the bubbles ? :D


I cant reckon that they have ever said that
Edited by Pointer, Mar 8 2017, 12:31 PM.

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I am currently of the opinion that Gohan was SSJ against Dabura, but here's all the evidence that comes to mind in favour of both sides...

IN FAVOUR OF GOHAN BEING SSJ:

- No SSJ2 lightning
- Gohan's ki was drained almost to zero by Yamu's Ki Drainer. One could argue that his ki hadn't fully replenished yet, denying Gohan access to SSJ2
- Goku said Dabura was about as strong as Cell. The version of Cell which Goku fought (and therefore the form which Goku would have the best feel for, in terms of ki) was SSJ-tier
- IIRC, Gohan had to "get angry" to transform into SSJ2, and nothing provided that impetus. Spopovich beating Videl made Gohan angry enough to have access to SSJ2 at the WMAT, but by the time of the Dabura fight, he had calmed down

IN FAVOUR OF GOHAN BEING SSJ2:

- Gohan thinks he can manage something against Initial Fat Buu if he turns SSJ2... and Dabura is confident fighting Initial Fat Buu
- Neither Vegeta nor Goku pass comment on Gohan using an inferior form. You'd think Goku would be shouting from the sidelines for Gohan to focus, try harder and go SSJ2. So a case could be made that Gohan must already be SSJ2 for the situation not to merit alarm
- Goku's reference to Cell could mean Super Perfect Cell (Goku sensed Gohan's ki, so most likely sensed Cell's too), meaning Dabura is SSJ2-tier
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Dear Follower
 
I am currently of the opinion that Gohan was SSJ against Dabura, but here's all the evidence that comes to mind in favour of both sides...

[...]
Actually, it's looks more like:

In favour of Gohan being Super Saiyan:

1) The art leans heavily to him being a regular Super Saiyan. The hair is a contentious point, but he unequivocally has the aura that is characteristic of regular Super Saiyan, and lacks the sparks that are characteristic of Super Saiyan 2.

In favour of Gohan being Super Saiyan 2:

1) No one speaks as if Gohan was a regular Super Saiyan while fighting Dabra, but actually as if he were a Super Saiyan 2. They act as if he is incapable of beating Dabra, though not as a mere Super Saiyan, but incapable in general. Faced with his eventual defeat, they never suggest he turn Super Saiyan 2 and end the fight instantly, nor give any hint or question that he can't, but instead the suggestion made is for someone else to step in to finish the fight he ostensibly has no way of winning himself.

2) Dabra himself is SSJ2-tier according to what is said. Goku compares him to Cell, and anyone that's ever made a comparison between one person's ability and another's would understand this to mean that person as they were best or most recently known to the one making the comparison - unless specified otherwise. It wasn't.
We might suppose Goku doesn't mean Super Perfect Cell because he either, A) doesn't consider that the same thing as Cell for some inexplicable reason, or, B) never felt his power due to him being dead, even though he felt Gohan's and said it was absolutely enough to overpower Cell if he didn't hold back, which is proven true considering Gohan is repeatedly used as the benchmark of power in this arc and not Cell's—though let's go with it for the sake of argument—but there's absolutely no excuse for why Goku wasn't talking about Cell after he displayed his full power. He unquestionably felt and witnessed it, and that is, without doubt, how strong Cell was if we are to somehow omit his Super-self.

3) There's no way even the strongest version of Super Saiyan Gohan would have fought well against any version of Cell that Goku's comparison implies, let alone his weaker, teenaged-self. It follows, then, that he certainly wouldn't have been able to do as well as he did against an opponent even stronger than that without using Super Saiyan 2.

4) Gohan is never shown or mentioned to have any problem turning Super Saiyan 2 at will. He did it upon request at the tournament, despite not being angry—see how he playfully smiled and waved when entering the ring—and Goku never says anger is required for the transformation itself, but only that he needed to get angry to, quote: "draw out all of the power [he has]".

Badaboom
 
But that doesn't affect the remarkably consistent way he drew each form in the original work.
Except in this case, though, eh?

Barring the multiple anomalies that everyone is aware of, like Vegetto momentarily displaying sparks, not only would it not have been in any way remarkable, but really something that would have been a very simple accomplishment, for the author to have been completely consistent on this front, but you're supposing this one isn't a mistake, despite the story suggesting otherwise, just because you can't find evidence of such a mistake elsewhere.

It doesn't work like that. You wouldn't say, despite evidence suggesting otherwise, "this person didn't lie about this, because there's no evidence they've ever lied about anything else." You're supposed to examine it as its own case, but instead you're hand-waving it away under good faith.

The story and the art say different things to one another.
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Imagine you're at a zoo. This particular zoo doesn't have any tigers, but they DO have a pretty popular lion exhibit. The average guest to the zoo, even the kids, typically know the lions right away when they see them. The zoo has signs and plaques around with info about the lions. The zoo's employees give fun little lectures about the lions on guided tours.

Now imagine you're there viewing the lion exhibit, when some random person approaches and says to you, "they're not really lions, you know. They're actually tigers."

"What are you talking about? They're pretty obviously lions."

"Nope. Tigers are cooler than lions, this other zoo I visited has tigers, and there's no reason for this zoo NOT to have tigers, so these must be tigers. I mean, it wouldn't make any sense for this zoo to NOT be as good as it possible can by having tigers, right?"

"But you can tell just from looking at them that they're lions, not tigers."

"Oh, really? How is that?"

"Well the most obvious way is that tigers have stripes and lions don't."

"What, ONLY tigers can have stripes? What about zebras? Don't the zebras get to have stripes too?"

"No, I didn't say that, just that it's the easiest trait of-"

"And what, ALL tigers have to have stripes ALL the time?"

"Well I think sometimes there's some genetic mishaps, but still like 999 out of 1,000 tigers ha-"

"Aha! Gotcha there! Since you can't prove that all tigers have stripes 100% of the time, then you can't prove that these are lions instead of tigers! I think this zoo should have tigers instead of just lions, so I say they're tigers!"

"...Are you on drugs?"






The zoo's average guests, who know tigers from lions just by looking, represent the manga's intended demographic of children and preteens.

The signs about the lions represent the various bits of guidebook information both about Super Saiyan 2's traits (lightning being listed among them in at least the GT Perfect Files) and when Gohan used the form in each version of the story.

The employees giving guided tours about the lions represent Toriyama actually having Goku demonstrate SS1 and SS2 to visually distinguish them in the manga, for both us and Majin Boo.

Finally, the confused patron wondering if the other guy's on drugs represents how I feel every time this topic comes up and people seem bizarrely incapable of simply recognizing what's drawn right there on the page in front of their noses.


Q: Was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabra in the Dragon Ball manga?
A: No, because he wasn't drawn as one.

Badabing, badaboom. I don't think I'll ever understand why the discussion ever goes beyond that. The whys or hows of Gohan not being Super Saiyan 2 are just irrelevant fluff on top of it.
Edited by Kaboom, Mar 9 2017, 10:26 PM.
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SSJ
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"...Are you on drugs?"

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Nah, but I agree with your logic completely. Funny post too.

Also I find it funny how the Perfect Files says lightning is associated with SSJ2 when Toei themselves never animate SSJ2 with lightning in GT.
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