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Was gohan really ssj2 against dabura?
Topic Started: Mar 1 2017, 01:21 PM (3,521 Views)
+ Saiyan Paladin
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zombie2599
Mar 6 2017, 11:30 PM
didnt vegito have lightning around him too, and he was just a regular ssj
Only for one panel when he transformed.
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Dabura's fireball had lightning around it. Nappa had lightning for a short bout when he powered up.
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Pyrus
Mar 6 2017, 10:17 PM
Paladin
Mar 6 2017, 09:12 PM
He's drawn as a Super Saiyan, there's no real getting around that. Why would Toriyama just randomly forget to draw him as a SS2? He literally has Goku explain all the forms not that long after Gohan's fight with Dabra.
There's at least a little validity to Super Saiyan 2 wavering in its ferocity. Ignoring blatant examples of Toriyama simply forgetting to add in lightning or choosing not to due to panel space, there are some times where a Super Saiyan 2 exists without lightning in the manga, such as Vegeta after he knocks out Goku. But otherwise, yeah, Super Saiyan 2 is 98% of the time accompanied by lightning in the aura.

Though to be fair, it's kind of weird for Vegeta to have "enough" power to maintain lightning while he's knocking Goku out, but then immediately after, he loses the lightning and his aura dampens into a regular Super Saiyan aura.

I can see why some would try and claim "well, Gohan's just a very weak Super Saiyan 2 in comparison to Goku and Vegeta so Toriyama chose to make him look pathetic while they look badass," even though I don't think that line of reasoning has much merit personally.

An example of a blatant Super Saiyan 2 not having lightning for whatever reason in a single panel, on the same page as him having lightning as well. And again, no lightning. He doesn't even have an aura here.
I mean, one off panel of SSJ2 not having lightning really doesn't change anything. The sparks aren't constant, they disappear and reappear. So catching a panel without sparks just means it is about to spark again, which in the case you showed is exactly what happens in the next panel.
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I Banged Sam
Mar 6 2017, 11:59 PM
Pyrus
Mar 6 2017, 10:17 PM
Paladin
Mar 6 2017, 09:12 PM
He's drawn as a Super Saiyan, there's no real getting around that. Why would Toriyama just randomly forget to draw him as a SS2? He literally has Goku explain all the forms not that long after Gohan's fight with Dabra.
There's at least a little validity to Super Saiyan 2 wavering in its ferocity. Ignoring blatant examples of Toriyama simply forgetting to add in lightning or choosing not to due to panel space, there are some times where a Super Saiyan 2 exists without lightning in the manga, such as Vegeta after he knocks out Goku. But otherwise, yeah, Super Saiyan 2 is 98% of the time accompanied by lightning in the aura.

Though to be fair, it's kind of weird for Vegeta to have "enough" power to maintain lightning while he's knocking Goku out, but then immediately after, he loses the lightning and his aura dampens into a regular Super Saiyan aura.

I can see why some would try and claim "well, Gohan's just a very weak Super Saiyan 2 in comparison to Goku and Vegeta so Toriyama chose to make him look pathetic while they look badass," even though I don't think that line of reasoning has much merit personally.

An example of a blatant Super Saiyan 2 not having lightning for whatever reason in a single panel, on the same page as him having lightning as well. And again, no lightning. He doesn't even have an aura here.
I mean, one off panel of SSJ2 not having lightning really doesn't change anything. The sparks aren't constant, they disappear and reappear. So catching a panel without sparks just means it is about to spark again, which in the case you showed is exactly what happens in the next panel.
I've read arguments that Vegeta was a Super Saiyan 2 all the way through and he simply wasn't powered up when he didn't have lightning.
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I know that's not your thought, but that is simply complete conjecture. There's absolutely no basis for that. Why would he power down for a panel and then power up again in the next? Makes no sense.
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I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:12 AM
I know that's not your thought, but that is simply complete conjecture. There's absolutely no basis for that. Why would he power down for a panel and then power up again in the next? Makes no sense.
He lost power from the fight?
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But why would the sparks come back then if their argument is that being weak = no sparks. He never healed.
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I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:21 AM
But why would the sparks come back then if their argument is that being weak = no sparks. He never healed.
He ate a senzu, hence he powered up. The argument is that Vegeta lost enough power to lose the aura, then regained it after eating the senzu.
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Pyrus
Mar 7 2017, 12:25 AM
I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:21 AM
But why would the sparks come back then if their argument is that being weak = no sparks. He never healed.
He ate a senzu, hence he powered up. The argument is that Vegeta lost enough power to lose the aura, then regained it after eating the senzu.
What about here?

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Why would he be losing it here? Also the argument is trash in itself in that half power SSJ2 Kid Gohan still had lightning when he flared his aura up again. People arguing SSJ2 Teen Gohan not having lightning because he is weak are implying he is using less than half power versus Dabra and Boo, which is simply laughable.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Time constraints could explain that panel with Vegeta (and most other panels with lightning-less SSj2s).
It's an out of universe explanation, but a believable one none-the-less.

Toriyama only had one assistant working with him during the serialization, and his assistant was usually overloaded. That was actually the real reason he made the Super Saiyan hair "white" or "yellow", because it didn't need blackfill in the manga. They almost missed deadlines because of the amount of work his assistant had.

Not drawing aura lightning in a panel or two here or there seems like a reasonable sacrifice if you need to crunch to meet a deadline.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 7 2017, 02:51 AM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him.
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I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:31 AM
Pyrus
Mar 7 2017, 12:25 AM
I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:21 AM
But why would the sparks come back then if their argument is that being weak = no sparks. He never healed.
He ate a senzu, hence he powered up. The argument is that Vegeta lost enough power to lose the aura, then regained it after eating the senzu.
What about here?

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Why would he be losing it here? Also the argument is trash in itself in that half power SSJ2 Kid Gohan still had lightning when he flared his aura up again. People arguing SSJ2 Teen Gohan not having lightning because he is weak are implying he is using less than half power versus Dabra and Boo, which is simply laughable.
He likely forgot in that instance, like he did in a handful of other panels.

The counter to the Kid Gohan example is that he didn't really lose half of his power. He was just depressed.
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"I am the bone of my sword."

ahill1
Mar 6 2017, 06:38 PM
EMIYA
Mar 5 2017, 04:43 PM
- Lack of rage
Gohan's entire SSj2 transformation was initially created by his intense rage. However by his own merit, he can no longer obtain this same level of rage. Even when Goku tells him to use the same power he used to beat Cell, Gohan finds it incredibly difficult to actually find and tap into that power. He notes that while he might be angry, he's not as angry as he was back then.

Well yeah, but the problem is that Gohan seems to access the SSJ2 by free will at the Tenkaichi Budôkai. He gave Videl a senzu beam, knowing she'd recovery and showed to be non-enranged when he smiled to his friends discovering he was the Great Saiyaman. He doesn't seem to be rage influenced there.

I am not saying Gohan can definitely turn into a SSJ2 without rage, since he was portrayed later as a simple SSJ. It's tough to argue either way.
The aspect of rage in this point I used for the battles with Dabura and Boo respectfully. It's at this point, goodness knows why, that Gohan is treated as someone who can't tap into his SSj2 power like he did in the past. Goku even remarks that Gohan needs to get angry like he did against Cell (which is where he obtained the transformation) but Gohan just can't.

The actions of the Budokai appeared to have been retconned or something else and so now Gohan has been given this personality issue that he simply did not show in the past.
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Pyrus
Mar 7 2017, 03:01 AM
I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:31 AM
Pyrus
Mar 7 2017, 12:25 AM
I Banged Sam
Mar 7 2017, 12:21 AM
But why would the sparks come back then if their argument is that being weak = no sparks. He never healed.
He ate a senzu, hence he powered up. The argument is that Vegeta lost enough power to lose the aura, then regained it after eating the senzu.
What about here?

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Why would he be losing it here? Also the argument is trash in itself in that half power SSJ2 Kid Gohan still had lightning when he flared his aura up again. People arguing SSJ2 Teen Gohan not having lightning because he is weak are implying he is using less than half power versus Dabra and Boo, which is simply laughable.
He likely forgot in that instance, like he did in a handful of other panels.

The counter to the Kid Gohan example is that he didn't really lose half of his power. He was just depressed.
Piccolo notes a yuge chi loss either way, doesn't really matter if it was half or not.
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I dunno why this is even up for debate :toj:

http://i.imgur.com/4QZtfl8.png
Edited by Kyouks, Mar 7 2017, 07:16 AM.
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I still applaud whoever made that. It's genius for poking fun at both sides.
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