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| Was gohan really ssj2 against dabura? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 1 2017, 01:21 PM (3,518 Views) | |
| + Pointer | Mar 1 2017, 01:21 PM Post #1 |
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Yeah i know that different aura and no lightning but It doest make sense that Vegeta said " he was stronger in the cell games" if gohan would be only ssj Instead he could have said, why dont he use ssj2 if he is not in his full power. This quote makes me wonder. Furthermore Goku said suppressed Dabura is like Cell (suppressed) then we had Dabura went to full power and goku said "Hey he is stronger than I thought' which means Full power dabura > suppressed dabura~ suppressed cell > mssj goku (cell games) Now we all know that goku increased his power since then and he surpassed his son's power which he had during the cell games and which vegeta referred to SSJ2 goku >SSj2 Gohan . Later Piccolo confirmed that the difference between them is very little. However it just doesnt make sense if a Mssj gohan who was said to be weaker than his CG self be on par with full power dabura who was stronger than suppressed Cell We know that Vegeta said in the tournament that Gohan is weaker than he was in the cell games. He said it while gohan was ssj2 He said the exact same thing when gohan fought with dabura. I suppose we underestimated Dabura a bit . I think that he is way way above of what we initialy thought my power chain is ssj2 goku>ssj2 gohan (cell games )~ Cell post zenkai > ssj2 gohan (against Dabura) ~ Dabura full power >~ Perfect cell full power > suppressed Dabura ~ suppressed Cell (against goku) > mssj goku (cell games) I have seen a lot of "proof" that the drawing were not indicated that gohan was ssj2 but we have to assume since the whole conversation seems to lead otherwise What do you think?[/b] Edited by Pointer, Mar 1 2017, 01:22 PM.
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| Dankness Lava | Mar 2 2017, 07:45 PM Post #2 |
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Dankness Forever
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Why can't it make sense? He did use super saiyan against cell after all. |
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| + Pointer | Mar 3 2017, 11:43 AM Post #3 |
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What im sayin is that vegeta commented on gohans strength as he is weaker than he was in cg . It makes no sense that he would say that whilr gohan is holding back |
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| Crow | Mar 3 2017, 01:02 PM Post #4 |
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Either way there's good evidence to suggest he was ssj2, as well as wasn't a ssj2. There's obviously no conclusive evidence on either side of the argument, as that's what happens when the evidence is strong on both sides of the coin, it brings up too many contradictions. So "non conclusively" I do mostly believe he was a ssj2 and agree with what you are saying, it definitely flows better with how everything played out and what was said. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Mar 5 2017, 05:37 AM Post #5 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I don't think he was. After what happened with Goku needing to sacrifice himself against Cell, Gohan seemed afraid to use it because of what it did to him. It changed him to the point where he didn't think he could fight effectively, even if it gave him a huge power boost. The reason why he transformed at the Tenkaichi Budokai because it was in a controlled environment and Kabito only wanted to witness it. Goku also told Gohan to "Fight like he did against Cell" when Gohan and Kaioshin left to find Boo's shell, and Gohan said he could "never fight like that again". And we saw that he wasn't SSj2 when he blasted Boo's shell. I don't think he was SSj2, and the only time that we saw him as SSj2 was when he showed Kabito. |
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| EMIYA | Mar 5 2017, 04:43 PM Post #6 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Let's just make a list of all the reasons Gohan wasn't an SSj2 against Dabura, from physical to story point. -Zero Electricity. This point has always been a, if not the primary aspect of the Super Saiyan 2 transformation, the idea that every single SSj2 transformation has a consistent form of electricity around it. It's on Pre and Post Majin Vegeta, it's on SSJ2 Goku, it's on SSj2 Kid Gohan, it's on SSJ2 Adult Gohan at the Budokai. It's a primary trait that is so well known that even non-SSJ2 character utilize it to show the distinct such as when Cell survives his self destruction and comes back with power on par with Gohan. In fact the only time this trait isn't show is during very specific panels (like Goku's burst against Yakon) or during beam attacks like that of Gohan vs Cell. But even with those relative outliers, the trait remains consistent enough to be a primary point. - No jagged aura. In the manga, the SSj2 transformation is given a distinct aura style, that being an incredibly sharp and jagged take. Just like with the electricity above, this style is notable for all the SSJ2 tier characters in the manga. Throughout the entire fight with Dabura, Gohan's aura stature is that of a light wavy concept not unlike the original Super Saiyan. Essentially not only does he lack the aura style of SSJ2 he lacks the aura style of MSSJ as well which also contained a very jagged aura style. -Eye structure This one is easy to miss and may not be as consistent as the others. However in the manga, the SSj2 transformation does have a notable aspect of slanting the eyes. Giving a more serious structure. However Gohan's eyes in the battle with Dabura do have a notably more relaxed if still serious expression on them. -Personality Change Gohan's transformation into an SSj2 has been marked by a unique and sometimes even twisted personality change to him. Upon his first transformation, he became a wild and sadistic child, personally finding glee in torturing Cell. Even upon Cell's return, Gohan shows an arrogant and pompous attitude, something which nearly costs him his life and the planet. Even against Kibito, Gohan's is notably arrogant and proud, wishing to show off his power and being ready to fight at any moment. However, this personality trait of pride, arrogance or even sadism is completely lacking with the battle against Dabura. - Lack of rage Gohan's entire SSj2 transformation was initially created by his intense rage. However by his own merit, he can no longer obtain this same level of rage. Even when Goku tells him to use the same power he used to beat Cell, Gohan finds it incredibly difficult to actually find and tap into that power. He notes that while he might be angry, he's not as angry as he was back then. These aspects by and far enhance the idea that Gohan not only isn't a Super Saiyan 2 but for some reason, can't personally tap into that power he once had. Considering the consistency of the transformation both before and after, it's difficult to act as if Gohan is one in this situation when he shares none of the attributes for it. Why must we give Gohan this free pass and not hold him to the same standards we hold everyone else? Plus, even if this was a drawing mistake, such a thing could easily be fixed in an editorial process. It's easy enough to use whiteout to fix up a mistake on a page and now a days with technology, it's beyond simple to go into a program, make a change, add electricity and have it edited in to the next volume update. The fact that even to this day this hasn't happened indicates to me that was entirely purposeful on Toriyama's part and wanted to show Gohan as distinctively different from the other SSj2s...because he wasn't one. |
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| SSJ | Mar 6 2017, 02:04 AM Post #7 |
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I think you need to calm down there, sir. The evidence is clear here. Gohan is drawn correctly at the Budokai, and then differently several chapters later. To argue he is the same form is ignorance. Edited by SSJ, Mar 6 2017, 02:05 AM.
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| ahill1 | Mar 6 2017, 06:38 PM Post #8 |
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Well yeah, but the problem is that Gohan seems to access the SSJ2 by free will at the Tenkaichi Budôkai. He gave Videl a senzu beam, knowing she'd recovery and showed to be non-enranged when he smiled to his friends discovering he was the Great Saiyaman. He doesn't seem to be rage influenced there. I am not saying Gohan can definitely turn into a SSJ2 without rage, since he was portrayed later as a simple SSJ. It's tough to argue either way. |
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Mar 6 2017, 09:12 PM Post #9 |
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He's drawn as a Super Saiyan, there's no real getting around that. Why would Toriyama just randomly forget to draw him as a SS2? He literally has Goku explain all the forms not that long after Gohan's fight with Dabra. |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 6 2017, 10:17 PM Post #10 |
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There's at least a little validity to Super Saiyan 2 wavering in its ferocity. Ignoring blatant examples of Toriyama simply forgetting to add in lightning or choosing not to due to panel space, there are some times where a Super Saiyan 2 exists without lightning in the manga, such as Vegeta after he knocks out Goku. But otherwise, yeah, Super Saiyan 2 is 98% of the time accompanied by lightning in the aura. Though to be fair, it's kind of weird for Vegeta to have "enough" power to maintain lightning while he's knocking Goku out, but then immediately after, he loses the lightning and his aura dampens into a regular Super Saiyan aura. I can see why some would try and claim "well, Gohan's just a very weak Super Saiyan 2 in comparison to Goku and Vegeta so Toriyama chose to make him look pathetic while they look badass," even though I don't think that line of reasoning has much merit personally. An example of a blatant Super Saiyan 2 not having lightning for whatever reason in a single panel, on the same page as him having lightning as well. And again, no lightning. He doesn't even have an aura here. Edited by Pyrus, Mar 6 2017, 10:31 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Mar 6 2017, 10:28 PM Post #11 |
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魔王子
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Honestly, I just list both possibilities in my battle power list. In the manga he seems to be a Super Saiyan. In the anime, he seems to be a Super Saiyan 2. |
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| + Kaboom | Mar 6 2017, 10:30 PM Post #12 |
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When you stack up all the panels and pages of SS2 with lightning bolts against the literally-count-'em-on-one-hand few where they're lacking... 95-99% consistency is still pretty darn consistent. There's a clear intent there to draw one form a certain way and another form a different way. Likewise there's a pretty darn big difference between "Vegeta lacked sparks for one or two panels possibly because he relaxed or powered down" and "Gohan lacked sparks for an entire fight spanning multiple pages." The anime is a whole different beast though. Edited by Kaboom, Mar 6 2017, 10:36 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Mar 6 2017, 10:32 PM Post #13 |
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And of course you've got the goons that use some of the newer material to claim lightning can exist for either form...like that Neko Majin Z thing or whatever. |
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| + Kaboom | Mar 6 2017, 10:35 PM Post #14 |
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Yeah, Toriyama more or less forgetting that Super Saiyan 2 existed at some point after the serialization ended would easily explain that. But that doesn't affect the remarkably consistent way he drew each form in the original work. |
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| zombie2599 | Mar 6 2017, 11:30 PM Post #15 |
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didnt vegito have lightning around him too, and he was just a regular ssj |
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