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| Toriyama's An Idiot | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 26 2017, 11:29 PM (2,321 Views) | |
| Dankness Lava | Feb 27 2017, 01:03 AM Post #16 |
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Dankness Forever
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Yeah, generally-praised franchises like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars don't get this level of debate because they are masterpieces. Dragon Ball as a franchise doesn't have the level of thought and detail put into it. |
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| Tinny | Feb 27 2017, 01:08 AM Post #17 |
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I wouldn't say Star Wars is a master piece either (can't speak for LotR) but in either case, I would say the Star Wars fandom probably has us beaten in terms of debate. http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ I mean... Hoooooooly Moly. Just look at this. There is not a single theory around DB I'm aware of that has even a quarter of the discussion needed to result in this... Interesting theory that George Lucas used Chiastic structure to tell the story of Star Wars, something that hasn't really been used since the likes of Beowulf and Paradise Lost. With all that said however, DB does have more flaws in it than Star Wars. Edited by Tinny, Feb 27 2017, 01:09 AM.
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| twitchy | Feb 27 2017, 01:09 AM Post #18 |
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Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but there can be more than one reason for on going debates. It can be because of bad or good writing. In Dragonball it's a little of both, but mostly bad lol. To everyone else saying I'm not being detailed enough, again look at the threads on this entire board and you'll get all the details you could ever want. |
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| Dankness Lava | Feb 27 2017, 01:09 AM Post #19 |
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Dankness Forever
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Well then. I just never seen Star Wars heavily debated like that. |
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| Tinny | Feb 27 2017, 01:22 AM Post #20 |
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Here's the front page, not including pinned topics. Buu's Destructive Power The gap between Nappa and Goku What is king Kais job? present androids the same as the future Non-generic fusion names what if goku was immortal Question about potara fusion If Piccolo Beat Freeza Vegeta and Gohan potara fusion What if Goku and Vegeta Trained Together? Was Yamcha ever stronger than Krillin at any point of the series? Faulconer: Greatest Composer of All Time TeamFourStar in DB Kai - Mr. Satan vs. Cell After training in the ROAST, Gotenks "surpassed Vegeta and the others"? Buu's destructive power is an other versus question, not relevant to the story of DBZ. The gap between Nappa and Goku, easily answered in post number two, and really it's the guide books that bring in an issue to this, outside of DB and often not of Toriyama's writing. What is king Kais job?, basically Ssj3vegito96 asking if King Kai had a job outside of watching over the Galaxy. He didn't. present androids the same as the future, a what if. Non-generic fusion names basically alternative names for fusion, Vegeta +King Kai, The Kai Prince, etc. what if goku was immortal, a what if. Question about potara fusion, it's a world building question that doesn't have much to do with the story. A what if question more so. What if Goku and Vegeta Trained Together?, a what if. Was Yamcha ever stronger than Krillin at any point of the series?, question about a frankly plot irrelevant event. Faulconer: Greatest Composer of All Time, compliment to Bruce Faulconer. TeamFourStar in DB Kai - Mr. Satan vs. Cell, A cool little scene that was cut from the anime. After training in the ROAST, Gotenks "surpassed Vegeta and the others"?, This was mostly stubbornness and asking for "explicit evidence" when the implications of the story answer the question. Only the last one really supports your idea here. |
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| Darker | Feb 27 2017, 01:44 AM Post #21 |
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The Lord of the Dark
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Oh trust me, it has. As much if not more than Dragon Ball. Not so much with LOTR though. |
Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| twitchy | Feb 27 2017, 01:46 AM Post #22 |
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That's a poor example, but I'll humor you. Here's the second page of this sub-forum.
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| breaker335 | Feb 27 2017, 02:24 AM Post #23 |
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Star Wars predates DB about a decade or so as such has a longer time to develop such things and that pic is supposed to show what exactly? |
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| Tinny | Feb 27 2017, 02:26 AM Post #24 |
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question about the particular of Freeza's statement (which was answered using knowledge about Dragon Ball itself rather than guide books, as in what Freeza was saying. an alternate explanation about Goten and Trunk's strength, pronouncing a word. a question about organization question about the particulars, similar to say, asking about the inner workings of the politics of Gondor. other versus question a what if Question about a popularly held but unsupported belief a what if power level particulars, not something that takes away form the story. power level particulars power level particulars question about a far away character that wasn't relevant at the time (and who would die to the planet explosion attack anyway a question about Jiya, another work of Toriyama's. Basically had anyone read it a what if and a what if. I'm beginning to doubt your knowledge on this subject twitchy. Toriyama has plenty of things to roast him on (such as Goku's shifting characterization through out Z and especially Super), but instead you bring up stuff that's either flat out false (16 being a rip off of the Terminator), or just a screen shot that doesn't actually help. If the power level particulars are what it takes for you to declare it bad, then I have to imagine what you think of Tolkein for not going into detail about Gondor's political system, culture, atmosphere, and particulars of governing. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 27 2017, 02:36 AM Post #25 |
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Jeez I hate to sound like a fan boy but I really hate this big misconception that dragon ball is a terribly made series. The original anime and dubs definitely had their flaws but Kai and the original manga aren't bad. So many people unfairly fairly criticize toriyama and dbz it's ridiculous and sometimes the people who do aren't even that knowledgeable on dbz
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 27 2017, 02:42 AM.
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| twitchy | Feb 27 2017, 02:46 AM Post #26 |
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Android 16 is, pound for pound, Arnold Schwarzenegger. If you don't agree with that then there's nothing I can say. Most of those topics are power debates. It's a small sample but they're not all what ifs, we're still having debates because the story content didn't do much to confirm anything. I didn't make this thread to list Toriyama's shortcomings, frankly I'm sick of reading about his mistakes all over the forum because most people don't acknowledge he's s***, he has so many that you can't keep excusing him. I've seen the show, accepted the corrections from the manga, and I still like it despite everything, but this isn't hard to see. Toriyama's handling of Goku's behavior is bad too, he wants to make Goku neutral but he doesn't even have the ability to write it without errors. There's too much nonsense man, if you don't agree with me after having been involved in the community then I don't know what to tell you other than I think that you seem to be making excuses for Toriyama. Edited by twitchy, Feb 27 2017, 02:54 AM.
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| twitchy | Feb 27 2017, 02:56 AM Post #27 |
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It doesn't take much knowledge to see that this show is trash sometimes/most of the time/pretty much all the time when it comes to consistent storytelling. |
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| Tinny | Feb 27 2017, 03:00 AM Post #28 |
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First you say Terminator, now you say Arnold Schwarzenegger? Those are very different beings. And I recall Schwarzenegger having a lot more wit to him than 16, plenty of jokes even like killing a man on the airplane and telling the stewardess to not disturb the dead corpse since he's "dead tired." 16 never did that as an example. He is not the Terminator nor is he Schwarzenegger, he shares similarities, but at that point you may as well say Joseph Joestar is a Kenshiro rip off (he is not and anyone claiming he is either hasn't watched one of the two shoes or is trolling) Much in the same way you can go back and forth regarding the precise mechanisms involved in the practice of ruling Gondor, that doesn't make Tolkein a bad writer, it's simply something you're not getting from the story. Yes, my issue with your arguments is that I had to bring it up. There are problems with Dragon Ball, it is not a perfect series, however it has it's own strengths, for the most part it follows it's own logic, and is a decent, if not great or even a good series depending on who you ask. It certainly doesn't fit my taste for shonen like say, Hajime no Ippo does, but to say that it has "Elementary mistakes left and right, up, down, everywhere" without elaborating beyond screen shots that are incorrect, to say he's ripping off stuff he's not ripping off in any way whatsoever. Your problem are with power level particulars that fall out of relevance by Namek. Toriyama is not a great writer, but he's not a horrible mangaka like you would say. I know this isn't my own words, but Super Eyepatch Wolf outlines a lot of Toriyama's skills really well and visually here. This is not the work of "a dumbass who had some good ideas, nothing more." Toriyama is a very decent mangaka, to say otherwise is to blind yourself to the series. Is he great? Absolutely not, Dragon Ball is not that great a show or manga to warrant that kind of praise, but to reduce it to the extreme statements you give it is just as much a disservice to the truth as is "Dragon Ball is the greatest anime of all time." I rag on Dragon Ball, and I don't like it that much, but it isn't "Trash." Certainly not because it fails to talk about governance in Gondor like you seem to base this thread on. Edited by Tinny, Feb 27 2017, 03:03 AM.
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| Darker | Feb 27 2017, 03:02 AM Post #29 |
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What are you on about? Major Metallitron is the only Terminator-ish character in all of DB and that was intentional, he was meant to be a caricature/parody. Android 16 shares NOTHING with the Terminator besides both being large humanoids, and that's it. A Terminator is a completely emotionless, violent machine made to erradicate humanity but eventually the one T-800 we all know and love gets reprogrammed and develops human-like feelings, becoming the (almost) father figure of John Connor across the entirety of the second movie. 16 began as a flawed creation of Dr Gero's that could hardly be considered violent, he just followed his one main objective which was kill Goku, and eventually sacrifices himself in order to save and protect that which he loves most, humanity and nature.
Most of the problems are attributed to Z, which is when Toriyama began to try out something slightly different and didn't quite work out for most people, and that is understandable because no writer would do that much of a good job if they tried to do something they aren't used to doing. Very few can pull it off
We're not making excuses. ALL of us acknowledge Toriyama's mistakes, but you're just being ridiculous with all of these accusations, especially the parts about ripping off others. |
Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 27 2017, 03:06 AM Post #30 |
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You do realize the fact that we are debating goku's character after decades means he's hardly an uninteresting character right? Toriyama did a great job with goku. The only mistakes are arguably in the buu saga. But goku's not perfect for earth and he's even admitted to it. Of course he's still going to make a few mistakes here and there even after making progress. That's not bad writing on toriyama's part. There's no error I don't think toriyama intended for goku to neutral in the way you're thinking. He has good morals it's just that he's not the typical goodie goodie traditional super hero |
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