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After training in the ROAST, Gotenks "surpassed Vegeta and the others"?
Topic Started: Feb 23 2017, 08:14 PM (5,566 Views)
Vertical
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OMG
Feb 24 2017, 08:46 PM
Tarble is the one that introduced the power that's used as reference, and the interior logic of the show suggests Tarble would only know of Freeza's 530,000 - so logic dictates Tarble is talking about Abo and Cado being about that strong.

Goku, regardless of what he's got in mind, suggests that what Tarble has got in mind (530,000) should be perfect for the kids. Then the kids end up being roughly equal. Ergo, Goten and Trunks are about 530,000, too.
So, when Tarble says "strong enough to rival Freeza", Goku... of all people... sits there and concludes that Tarble could only be referring to 530k Freeza, and then proceeds to compare that level to Goten/Trunks? Instead of just thinking "Oh, Freeza..."

I get that the author's intent might have been a comparison to 530k Freeza... but even if that was the case, the content and characters imply Final Form Freeza.

...as is the opposite with the Kaioshin situation where the author's intent was likely Final Form Freeza but everything "in Universe" points to Kaioshin referring to 530k Freeza.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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@Nagito

Your argument about what Goku should be thinking is conjecture. Tarble brings up Abo and Cado being around 530k.

How does Goku saying that Freeza level power being a "good challenge" for the kids somehow refute the fact that their base forms were explicitly shown to be matched by opponents stated to be around 530k?

Nobody on the opposing side has any argument unless they answer that, and it's not like they can since the 2 concepts have nothing to do with each other nor do they intertwine in anyway.



@Vertical

Nope.

-Tarble compares Abo and Cado to 1st form Freeza.
-That power matches base Goten and Trunks.

Goku saying that Freeza level power in general being a "good challenge" for the kids doesn't refute Goten and Trunks in their base forms being matched by 530k's.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM.
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Vertical
Feb 24 2017, 08:52 PM
So, when Tarble says "strong enough to rival Freeza", Goku... of all people... sits there and concludes that Tarble could only be referring to 530k Freeza, and then proceeds to compare that level to Goten/Trunks? Instead of just thinking "Oh, Freeza..."
No, it has little to do with Goku. You're obsessing over the point as if Goku's mind trumps everything for no reason whatsoever.

Reasoning the situation through, Tarble introduces the comparison, and everything else aligns with that. Tarble is the very basis of the whole sequence that tells us how strong Goten and Trunks are being shown to be here, and they end up conforming to that, and yet you're completely, willfully ignoring what he must have in mind, because... it's not what you would have in mind?

Even if the writers had True Form Freeza in mind—I don't doubt they probably did—the internal logic of the sequence ends up saying 530,000.

Quote:
 
I get that the author's intent might have been a comparison to 530k Freeza... but even if that was the case, the content and characters imply Final Form Freeza.
No, Goku alone implies True Form Freeza. He's the bump in the road that we take that concludes 530,000 when we start at the beginning journey here.

Quote:
 
...as is the opposite with the Kaioshin situation where the author's intent was likely Final Form Freeza but everything "in Universe" points to Kaioshin referring to 530k Freeza.
Fortunately, this one works out perfectly fine either way.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Does anyone have the direct quotes from Tarble and Goku? 'Cause wording is important.
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Izanagi!

Double post, sorry, but here's a few quotes;

Time: 18:04
Context: Goku tries to convince Vegeta to let Goten fight.
Goku: Vegeta if there's two of them, there should be two of us.
Vegeta: Trunks will be enough.
Goku: True. Very true.
Note: Trunks > Abo and Cado.

Time: 18:32
Context: Abo scans Goten and Trunks with his scouter.
Abo: They're kids with little combat strength!
Cado: They're mocking us.


Time: 18:50
Context: Vegeta asks Tarble about Abo and Cado.
Vegeta: Tarble, are those Freeza's men?
Tarble: Remnants. They were on another planet when you destroyed Freeza.
Vegeta: Wait, I remember now. They ranked with the Ginyu Special Force back then.
Tarble: They're even stronger now. As strong as Freeza was.
Goku: Freeza, huh? In hindsight, not much of a foe. Perfect for the kids.


Time: 20:14
Context: Goku and Vegeta talks about how the boys beat down Abo and Cado.
Goku: Lookin' good, boys!
Vegeta: Only expected.
Note: Vegeta expected them to beat Freeza tier opponents at Base.
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Saint Lazuli
 
Even if the writers had True Form Freeza in mind—I don't doubt they probably did—the internal logic of the sequence ends up saying 530,000.
I don't even know why I said this. It's pretty evident in everything post-Z that the base Saiyans are regarded as weaker than Freeza before God-ki is a thing.

So of course the writers themselves weren't even thinking the weakest among them, somehow now even weaker than Roshi, apparently, are comparable to True Form Freeza.
Edited by Sandy Shore, Feb 24 2017, 09:17 PM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:55 PM
@Vertical

Nope.

-Tarble compares Abo and Cado to 1st form Freeza.
-That power matches base Goten and Trunks.

Goku saying that Freeza level power in general being a "good challenge" for the kids doesn't refute Goten and Trunks in their base forms being matched by 530k's.
- Tarble warns that Abo and Cado rival Freeza (he likely means First Form Freeza)
- Goku is disappointed in what he believes Freeza-level strength to be (which, most would conclude should be some level of Final Form Freeza)... and says they'd be good opponents for the kids.
- The kids proceed to completely outclass Abo and Cado without much effort (in the manga)

Oh look... it makes complete sense here. "530k Freeza" level opponents being no match for "Final Form Freeza" level opponents. Opponents forced to fuse after 2 hits hardly seem like "good opponents".

Anime, not so much. But hey, we've got a character that relies completely on a scouter to measure people's strength expecting 530k'ish enemies and wouldn't be able to tell the difference between "way stronger than me" and "way way way stronger than me" without said scouter.

OMG
Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM
Vertical
Feb 24 2017, 08:52 PM
So, when Tarble says "strong enough to rival Freeza", Goku... of all people... sits there and concludes that Tarble could only be referring to 530k Freeza, and then proceeds to compare that level to Goten/Trunks? Instead of just thinking "Oh, Freeza..."
No, it has little to do with Goku. You're obsessing over the point as if Goku's mind trumps everything for no reason whatsoever.
Whatever is in Goku's mind does trump everything else because Goku is the one that makes the comparison with Goten and Trunks. What he expects is what matters when making that comparison. Also, unlike Tarble, who has questionable information, Goku knows Goten and Trunks' strength.

OMG
Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM
Reasoning the situation through, Tarble introduces the comparison, and everything else aligns with that. Tarble is the very basis of the whole sequence that tells us how strong Goten and Trunks are being shown to be here, and they end up conforming to that, and yet you're completely, willfully ignoring what he must have in mind, because... it's not what you would have in mind?
I'm not ignoring Tarble at all. I'm pointing out that whatever he has in mind is irrelevant to the comparison Goku makes.

OMG
Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM
Even if the writers had True Form Freeza in mind—I don't doubt they probably did—the internal logic of the sequence ends up saying 530,000.
The internal logic of the situation says that Tarble is expecting 530k level opponents and that Goku should be expecting much more... in the manga Goten and Trunks completely outclass whatever level Abo and Cado are at and in the anime they ~match it. So, in the manga at least, it makes more sense.

OMG
Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM
Quote:
 
I get that the author's intent might have been a comparison to 530k Freeza... but even if that was the case, the content and characters imply Final Form Freeza.
No, Goku alone implies True Form Freeza. He's the bump in the road that we take that concludes 530,000 when we start at the beginning journey here.
Less of a bump, more of a rerouting.

OMG
Feb 24 2017, 09:01 PM
Quote:
 
...as is the opposite with the Kaioshin situation where the author's intent was likely Final Form Freeza but everything "in Universe" points to Kaioshin referring to 530k Freeza.
Fortunately, this one works out perfectly fine either way.
Works out, sure... but changes the weight of the situation immensely.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 05:12 AM
Yeah, I can already tell people are going to start twisting logic hard.

We have an official statement saying that Gotenks was weaker than Vegeta until he went into the rosat. That ends the discussion on the matter.

None of the arguments proposing Gotenks being stronger than Vegeta let alone Goku pre rosat make any sense, they never made any sense when you looked at the context correctly and there is official statement shooting the notion down, so the logic that you would have to twist to come to the conclusion isn't even relevant.

i may not always be the best with power and statements in dragon ball, but i do know there was no offical statement from toriyama that gotenks was weaker than, thats just giving false information , or if you heard it from somewhere it was a rumor probably started by some vegeta fans

one example, if youve heard of it which i think most have, was that false rumor that in an interview, toriyama confirmed gogeta was stronger than vegito
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:35 PM
He's part of the top 10 strongest on earth putting him above Goten and Trunks as SSJs, so obviously.
Is he stronger than Gotenks as well? :rofl:
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@Vertical

No, the distinction you're making between the anime and manga is pointless. Abo & Cado underestimate Goten & Trunks and get sent flying back all the same in both versions. There was no big difference between the pairs.
There is no powerscale difference. The only difference is that they decide to fuse immediately in the manga instead fighting it out for a while.


Goku saying that Freeza level power in general being a good challenge for the kids doesn't change the fact that their base forms were matched by opponents whom were stated to be comparable to 1st form Freeza.
Goku's statement has nothing to do with anything regarding Abo & Cado's strength. What Goku is expecting is completely irrelevant. What Tarble has in mind is 530k opponents and that is what shows up, 530k opponents.


Freeza level power in general would be a good challenge for the kids, but the kid's base forms were comparable to opponents with powerlevels of 530k. This isn't hard to understand.

The writers portrayed all Base Saiyans as weaker than Freeza, so claiming that Goten and Trunks are at that level despite them being stated to be weaker than even the humans as SSJs doesn't make any sense.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 09:48 PM.
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I mean, Trunks and Goten are clearly superior to Abo and Cado, so they're above First Form Freeza, if that's who Goku was referring to (for some reason)
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 09:42 PM
@Vertical
No, the distinction your making between the anime and manga is pointless. Abo & Cado underestimate Goten & Trunks and get sent flying back. There was no big difference between the pairs.
There is no powerscale difference. The only difference is that they decide to fuse immediately in the manga instead fighting it out for a while.
Feel free to show me anything that indicates the Avocado pairing was anywhere near the kids in the manga.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 09:42 PM
Goku saying that Freeza level power in general being a good challenge for the kids doesn't change the fact that their base forms were matched by opponents whom were stated to be comparable to 1st form Freeza.

Goku's statement has nothing to do with anything regarding Abo & Cado's strength. What Goku is expecting is completely irrelevant. What Tarble has in mind is 530k opponents and that is what shows up, 530k opponents.

Freeza level power in general would be a good challenge for the kids, but the kid's base forms were comparable to opponents with powerlevels of 530k. This isn't hard to understand.
So... Goku's an idiot. Gotcha.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 09:42 PM
The writers portrayed all Base Saiyans as weaker than Freeza, so claiming that Goten and Trunks are at that level despite them being stated to be weaker than even the humans as SSJs doesn't make any sense.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait... where exactly are Goten and Trunks stated to be weaker than the humans as SSJs?
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@Nagito
Nobody said anything about Goku referring to 1st form Freeza. Tarble states that Abo & Cado are as strong as 1st form Freeza. That is the power that was shown to match the kids.


Goku states that Freeza level power in general would be a good match for the kids. That doesn't refer to their base forms alone and that doesn't imply that either of the kids are capable of beating full power Freeza, especially not when they're weaker than the humans.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 09:54 PM.
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So, in the manga at least, it makes more sense.
Wasn't even aware of a manga. Though, this hardly matters since you seem well aware of how the argument looks against the anime, and are still somehow trying to refute how it actually works.

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Whatever is in Goku's mind does trump everything else because Goku is the one that makes the comparison with Goten and Trunks.
No. The comparison Goku makes conforms with the one Tarble makes... Tarble is the most important piece here, unquestionably, because not only does he introduce the entire chain, everything else ends up conforming to what he introduced.

Quote:
 
I'm not ignoring Tarble at all. I'm pointing out that whatever he has in mind is irrelevant to the comparison Goku makes.
Not when the comparison conforms to the one Tarble made. It doesn't suddenly disappear, nor is the sequence concluded, at the moment Goku opens his mouth. We end up back to what Tarble said when we follow the whole thing through.

Tarbles tells us how strong Abo and Cado are, which we can only understand to be about 530,000. Then Goku basically says that's about how strong Goten and Trunks, and even though this means they should be in completely different leagues, we're then shown that Goten and Trunks are about as strong as Abo and Cado, as stated by Goku, whom we know from Tarble are about 530,000.

There's no way around it.

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Less of a bump, more of a rerouting.
Nope. We still end up at 530,000.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 09:53 PM
@Nagito
Nobody said anything about Goku referring to 1st form Freeza. Tarble states that Abo & Cado are as strong as 1st form Freeza. That is the power that was shown to match the kids.


Goku states that Freeza level power in general would be a good match for the kids. That doesn't refer to their base forms alone and that doesn't imply that either of the kids are capable of beating full power Freeza, especially not when they're weaker than the humans.
That assumes that Goku knows that Tarble's talking about First Form Goku, doesn't it?

And I honestly have no clue why you keep bringing up the humans, it's a completely irrelevant point that brings nothing to the conversation.
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