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After training in the ROAST, Gotenks "surpassed Vegeta and the others"?
Topic Started: Feb 23 2017, 08:14 PM (5,567 Views)
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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No, they didn't one shot them. They are fine after being kicked just like in the animation. It's just a different version of events. They just fuse right away instead of trying to fight the kids some more in their normal forms. Doesn't change the fact that 530k's were a challenge to the kids.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 01:47 PM
@Vertical

The Base kids would be one shotted by final form Freeza since Goku is stated to be incapable of beating the same Freeza in base. What you're saying doesn't even make sense.

Tarble states that their power is 530k. The kids were rivaled by that. How does Goku's intentions change the fact that Abo and Kado are only 530k?

Yes Final form Freeza is closer to the kids than the adults in power. So yes it makes sense to say that Freeza level power is a good challenge for the kids.
Tarble doesn't state that their power is 530k. He warns that the enemy they will face is likely to be close to Freeza in strength.

That's the key here. He doesn't say a number. He says they're strong enough to rival Freeza. What that means to him doesn't matter... because he's not the one that measures Goten and Trunks: Goku is. So, what actually matters here is what "strong enough to rival Freeza" would mean to Goku. It doesn't even matter what Abo & Cado's actual strength is. All that matters is what Goku is expecting from the statement "strong enough to rival Freeza".

Does it make any sense for someone to mention Freeza's strength and Goku to think of anything but Final Form Freeza? You know... the one he actually fought... for, what was long standing, the longest fight in anime history? Do you believe when Kaioshin mentioned that the previous Kaioshin group could all one-shot Freeza, that Goku was thinking of 530k Freeza?


Also, I would really appreciate if you addressed my previous question regarding contradicting guidebooks and how you handle that.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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@Vertical

He states that Abo and Cado are now as strong as Freeza was which is 530k. All he knows about is 1st form Freeza. You're not making any sense.

How is your conjecture about Goku's thoughts even relevant? Abo and Cado were compared to 1st form Freeza, not his final form and that level of power matched the kids. What Goku expects is 100% irrelevant and your argument about knowing what he's thinking is complete conjecture.

You're trying to say that based on Goku thinking that Freeza in general would be a good challenge for the kids, that the kids are stronger than they were actually shown to be, which is 1st form Freeza level in their base. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

There isn't any contradiction in the guidebooks.
Not saying it isn't possible for it to have a mistake, but that's a slippery slope. Fans would use the guidebooks having one mistake as a reason to completely disregard anything from it that they don't like as if it's official word doesn't trump any conjecture they bring forth.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 07:17 PM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 07:15 PM
@Vertical

He states that Abo and Cado are now as strong as Freeza was which is 530k. All he knows about is 1st form Freeza. You're not making any sense.

How is your conjecture about Goku's thoughts even relevant? Abo and Cado were compared to 1st form Freeza, not his final form and that level of power matched the kids. What Goku expects is 100% irrelevant and your argument about knowing what he's thinking is complete conjecture.

You're trying to say that based on Goku thinking that Freeza in general would be a good challenge for the kids, that the kids are stronger than they were actually shown to be, which is 1st form Freeza level in their base. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I don't understand what's flying over your head here. How strong Tarble thinks Freeza is doesn't matter because Goku is the one that compares them to the kids. What Goku thinks is completely relevant. Heck, it's the most important thing here... because Goku tells you how strong the kids are.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 07:15 PM
There isn't any contradiction in the guidebooks.
Not saying it isn't possible for it to have a mistake, but that's a slippery slope. Fans would use the guidebooks having one mistake as a reason to completely disregard anything from it that they don't like as if it's official word doesn't trump any conjecture they bring forth.
Firstly, I believe that it was Daizenshuu 2 and 7 contradict each other in regard to what form Gohan was using against Dabura. I'm not 100% on the volume number but the contradiction exists. That's not even debatable. Which is why I ask what you do when that happens.

Secondly, at what differentiates a mistake and a contradiction, in this context? If a guidebook says something that is incorrect, for example if Daiz 37 said "When Goku fought Uub as a Super Saiyan 3 in the final chapter of Dragon Ball, his strength was not enough to defeat the young boy!" ...it clearly contradicts what actually happened...
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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No, Tarble knows how strong 1st form Freeza is since he made the comparison between him and Abo & Cado in the 1st place. That power matched Goten and Trunks. The mental gymnastics you keep trying to pull don't make any sense.

Goku never said that the kids were stronger than Freeza, so I don't know what you're going on about. He said that Freeza level power was a good challenge for them. Doesn't mean that they're stronger or as strong as that level of power.

Daizenshuu 2 and 7 don't contradict each other. Pretty sure that one of them say that Gohan used SSJ2 against Dabura and the other one simply doesn't mention whether he used SSJ2 or not. Not a contradiction since omitting info isn't the same as giving contradictory info.

The Daizenshuu would never have info like Goku using SSJ3 against Oob, so that's not even a relevant stance.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 07:48 PM.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 07:47 PM
No, Tarble knows how strong 1st form Freeza is since he made the comparison between him and Abo & Cado in the 1st place. That power matched Goten and Trunks. The mental gymnastics you keep trying to pull don't make any sense.

Goku never said that the kids were stronger than Freeza, so I don't know what you're going on about. He said that Freeza level power was a good challenge for them. Doesn't mean that they're stronger or as strong as that level of power.
Like I said, how strong Tarble thinks Freeza might be is not relevant. Tarble doesn't measure Goten/Trunks. Goku does. Goku says the incoming enemies, who he thinks "rival Freeza" would be good opponents for the kids. There are no mental gymnastics... just common sense.

As for that second point: I've not said anything about the kids being stronger than Freeza. I don't know where you're getting that from. All I've raised is that Abo & Cado vs Goten & Trunks is a comparison made by Goku, not Tarble.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 07:47 PM
Daizenshuu 2 and 7 don't contradict each other. Pretty sure that one of them say that Gohan used SSJ2 against Dabura and the other one simply doesn't mention whether he used SSJ2 or not. Not a contradiction since omitting info isn't the same as giving contradictory info.
One says he's SSJ2, the other says he didn't use SSJ2 after the tournament. It's not omitted information, it's contradicting.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 07:47 PM
The Daizenshuu would never have info like Goku using SSJ3 against Oob, so that's not even a relevant stance.
It was simply an example. The point remains: When does a "mistake" become a "contradiction" in your eyes?
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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No, saying that Freeza level power is a good challenge for the kids doesn't mean that they're stronger than they were shown to be which is 1st form Freeza level in their base.
Freeza being a good challenge for them doesn't mean that they are as strong as full power Freeza or even close to that level. Freeza was a "good challenge" to Namek arc Base Goku.

No, what you're saying isn't common sense. The conclusion you came to is so off the wall that nobody would come to it reading the text without an ulterior agenda.

The only relevant facts here are:
-Abo and Cado were compared to 1st form Freeza, putting their power levels around 530k.
-Base Goten and Trunks were matched by them.

No, Freeza being a "good challenge" for them according to Goku's word doesn't imply that their base forms are beyond what was shown.

The Daizenshuu doesn't say that he didn't use SSJ2. It simply made no mention of him using it.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 24 2017, 08:09 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Goku's never even seen First Form Freeza, so why would he pick a weaker form that he's had no experience with rather than, say, Initial Final Form Freeza or Full Power Freeza?

As someone said before, does that mean that Kaioshin is only > First Form Freeza? If that's the Freeza that Goku defaults to, it would be, and it would be the form that Beerus is thinking of when he makes the comparison about the Base Saiyans, right?
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Goku never seeing first form Freeza doesn't matter.
He never said anything other than that Freeza level power would be a good challenge for the kids, which doesn't put the SSJ kids on full power Freeza's level.
It doesn't change the fact that the kids in their base forms were matched by 530k's and Goku's statement doesn't contradict the feats. I don't know how this is so hard to understand.
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+ Saiyan Paladin
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So is Roshi over 530k?
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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He's part of the top 10 strongest on earth putting him above Goten and Trunks as SSJs, so obviously.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:25 PM
Goku never seeing first form Freeza doesn't matter.
He never said anything other than that Freeza level power would be a good challenge for the kids, which doesn't put the SSJ kids on full power Freeza's level.
It doesn't change the fact that the kids in their base forms were matched by 530k's and Goku's statement doesn't contradict the feats. I don't know how this is so hard to understand.
It doesn't make sense from Goku's point of view. He wouldn't be thinking of First Form Freeza in the first place.
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+ Sandy Shore
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You're all wrong. SuperSaiyanGodGogeta is being more logical than all of you arguing against him here, but he's wrong when he speaks as if these are their official powers, when it doesn't hold up in the original manga itself.

Tarble is the one that introduced the power that's used as reference, and the interior logic of the show suggests Tarble would only know of Freeza's 530,000 - so logic dictates Tarble is talking about Abo and Cado being about that strong.

Goku, regardless of what he's got in mind, suggests that what Tarble has got in mind (530,000) should be perfect for the kids. Then the kids end up being roughly equal. Ergo, Goten and Trunks are about 530,000, too.

That's the logic of what happened there, whether you like it or not. I agree that Goku shouldn't be imagining anything less than initial True Form Freeza—though, it could arguably be as low as whatever power he's felt of Freeza before he met him—but, to reiterate, Tarble is the one that introduces the comparison, who shouldn't be imagining anything more than First Form Freeza, and everything else aligns with that, even though Goku's mind technically shouldn't. That's just how it is.

As for which form Kaioshin was talking about: it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, he was stating that the other Kais are multi-folds above which ever form of Freeza he's got in mind (could be either), and we also know he's the weakest among them, so when he himself is already much stronger than Piccolo, who is much stronger than the strongest form of Freeza, his statements end up true regardless.

again, though, they're clearly way above 530,000 in the canon-proper.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:07 PM
No, saying that Freeza level power is a good challenge for the kids doesn't mean that they're stronger than they were shown to be which is 1st form Freeza level in their base.
Freeza being a good challenge for them doesn't mean that they are as strong as full power Freeza or even close to that level. Freeza was a "good challenge" to Namek arc Base Goku.
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:07 PM
The only relevant facts here are:
-Abo and Cado were compared to 1st form Freeza, putting their power levels around 530k.
-Base Goten and Trunks were matched by them.

No, Freeza being a "good challenge" for them according to Goku's word doesn't imply that their base forms are beyond what was shown.
The only relevant facts here are:
- Goku compared Goten and Trunks to enemies he expected to be "strong enough to rival Freeza" and believed they would be good opponents.
- Base Goten and Trunks outclass [manga], or match [anime] the enemies.

You're assuming what was shown and then using it to defend what you believe is shown. Your argument is completely circular.

It is neither stated nor shown nor proven that Abo and Cado are 530k, or thereabouts.

SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:07 PM
No, what you're saying isn't common sense. The conclusion you came to is so off the wall that nobody would come to it reading the text without an ulterior agenda.
What agenda could I possibly be pushing here?
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
Feb 24 2017, 08:35 PM
He's part of the top 10 strongest on earth putting him above Goten and Trunks as SSJs, so obviously.
Are you suggesting Roshi is stronger than 20% of Freeza's full power on Namek?
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