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After training in the ROAST, Gotenks "surpassed Vegeta and the others"?
Topic Started: Feb 23 2017, 08:14 PM (5,560 Views)
SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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Doesn't mean anything. The intent is clear. You're just playing with the words.
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The intent is clearly wrong unless you consider that the intent in the past was that goku was always suppressed
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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No, it was never stated that Goku is always suppressed. There is nothing going against Beerus' assessment. He prodded Base Goku a few times and concluded that he was below Freeza.
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ahill1
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I just read the manga of "Yo Son Goku" and we also have that comparison between Avo & Cado with Freeza made by Tarble, with Goku saying "huh, Freeza? Not much of an opponent now... Goten and Trunks will be fine!". So we can have Tarble making a comparison to 1st form Freeza and Goku idealizing Freeza at his absolute 100% just fine, since we are also shown Goten and Trunks trashing them at their base forms and forcing them to fuse. Just in the manga though, since in the anime they [apparently] struggled with those foes.
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ahill1
Feb 25 2017, 05:29 AM
I just read the manga of "Yo Son Goku" and we also have that comparison between Avo & Cado with Freeza made by Tarble, with Goku saying "huh, Freeza? Not much of an opponent now... Goten and Trunks will be fine!". So we can have Tarble making a comparison to 1st form Freeza and Goku idealizing Freeza at his absolute 100% just fine, since we are also shown Goten and Trunks trashing them at their base forms and forcing them to fuse. Just in the manga though, since in the anime they [apparently] struggled with those foes.
Until they shook off the rust, and then they started owning. But rust makes someone 50x weaker, I forgot.
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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There is nothing indicating that Abo & Cado and Goten & Trunks compare any different in the manga and the animation.

Them deciding to fuse right away means nothing. You have to make an assertion why the writers made them fuse right away. One side is saying that it's because they were much weaker(for some reason even though that isn't implied).

The other side can just say that the animation extended it simply because they wanted to, not because the power hierarchy is any different in both versions.


Goku idealizing final form Freeza has nothing to do with where Trunks and Goten are, which is why I don't know how people are equating what Goku says to their strength.
Goku idealized final form Freeza, but Abo & Cado, therefore Goten & Trunks in their base forms are all around 530k as Tarble equated the former duo to 1st form Freeza.

Any claims that Goten and Trunks surpass final form Freeza has already been directly refuted.
Edited by SuperSaiyanGodGogeta, Feb 25 2017, 02:18 PM.
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Didn't kid trunks raise his power level high enough for goku sense him from beerus and whis's planet? Doesn't that put ssj1 trunks at buu saga ssj3 goku level?
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Dear Leader
Feb 23 2017, 08:14 PM
Gotenks's entry in Dainzenshuu 7 says the following:

"The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others."

What is your interpretation of this quote? Do you think it has any value as a canon power statement, or is it just hastily-written filler?

Here is my analysis...

The quote basically implies that Base Gotenks (Post) surpassed SSJ/SSJ2 Vegeta (Majin or otherwise).

Here's a table with some numbers, showing how much Goten and Trunks would have to increase their power levels in the ROAST for this to be possible...

Base Goku10Base Goten (Pre)4Base Goten (Post)25Base Goten (Post)55
Base Vegeta8.8Base Trunks (Pre)4Base Trunks (Post)25Base Trunks (Post)55
SSJ Vegeta440Base Gotenks (Pre)80Base Gotenks (Post) (Surpassed SSJ Vegeta)500Base Gotenks (Post) (Surpassed SSJ2 Vegeta (Majin))1100
SSJ2 Vegeta880SSJ Gotenks (Pre)4000
SSJ2 Vegeta (Majin)1000
SSJ3 Goku4000

The only suggestion of Goten and Trunks receiving a mega boost is considered a gag scene by a large amount of the DBZ fanbase.

So my opinion of this quote is that it just doesn't make sense.

Additionally, why is this quote so vague in the first place?!
No goten and trunks never surpassed goku in their base

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ekrolo2
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Tarble's meaning of Abo & Cado's power based on his knowledge of power puts them at 530k, at least.

Goku's meaning of this statement ranges anywhere between 3-120 million since that's the range of power he most associates with Freeza. Coupled with the BoG comment of Base Saiyan's being inferior to max power Namek Freeza and Goten & Trunks being close to their dads in the Boo arc, I fail to see what exactly is up for debate here.

I don't like them being that powerful just because either but it is what it is.
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twitchy
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So can anyone sum up the hierarchy and supporting material?
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SuperSaiyanGodGogeta
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People still aren't making any sense. Tarble mentions 530k and the base kids conform to fighting on par with that level of power. Goku's interpretation means absolutely nothing other than the face value interpretation of Freeza level power being a good challenge for them.

Final form Frieza being a good challenge for them doesn't mean anything.
People still haven't put forth an argument about how that refutes their base forms being shown to be around 530k. Until then, nobody on the opposing side has an argument that even slightly makes sense.

And the kids were never anything more than flies compared to their fathers. I don't know where this notion that they are close to Goku and Vegeta is coming from.
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twitchy
Feb 26 2017, 03:05 PM
So can anyone sum up the hierarchy and supporting material?
What do you mean?
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twitchy
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Pyrus
Feb 26 2017, 08:29 PM
twitchy
Feb 26 2017, 03:05 PM
So can anyone sum up the hierarchy and supporting material?
What do you mean?
There's 11 pages, did you guys come up with a consensus between Gotenks, Vegeta and Goku's strength in all their forms or is it still unknown?
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twitchy
Feb 26 2017, 09:02 PM
Pyrus
Feb 26 2017, 08:29 PM
twitchy
Feb 26 2017, 03:05 PM
So can anyone sum up the hierarchy and supporting material?
What do you mean?
There's 11 pages, did you guys come up with a consensus between Gotenks, Vegeta and Goku's strength in all their forms or is it still unknown?
The consensus, at least on this forum, is SSj Gotenks (pre) > SSj3 Goku > Base Gotenks (pre) > SSj2 Goku/Majin Vegeta. There are, of course, those that go a different direction, such as the Gogeta character.
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