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| Attack Potency vs Split Durability | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 05:46 PM (3,464 Views) | |
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 12 2017, 05:00 PM Post #61 |
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Is that Arlia scene in Kai? Lol they didn't touch up the colors? He has a line in Kai and manga that implies that at full power he can survive the blast pretty easily This scan is a little off probably but I can't find it in Herms ![]() In dbz Kai he says something like "I can't sustain the explosion in my current state. I need to get off the planet" and yet he still survived lol Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 12 2017, 05:00 PM.
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| Tinny | Feb 12 2017, 05:59 PM Post #62 |
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I watched Kai a while back and I don't think they did, though it's also possible I'm mistaken. That is true enough, but again, if saiyan saga Vegeta is casually doing this with two fingers... Why would Full Power final form Freeza need to fear anything from a planet exploding? According to Solid Snake, characters punch as hard as they blast and there's no possible difference, this extends to durability as well as I understand it, meaning that if saiyan saga is casually blowing up planets, and Freeza can lose strength being on a planet when it explodes... Freeza can get hurt by the blast Vegeta did in Arlia? Full power 100% Freeza? Maybe I'm missing something but I find this suspect at best. Even under the conditions Solid Snake puts forward, it's clear there is a difference between how they take damage from physical things like punches and exploding planets, and how they take damage from stuff like Ki. And yeah, the anime general, even Kai, is rather inconsistent with feats |
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| + Solid Snake | Feb 12 2017, 08:39 PM Post #63 |
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I didn't bring up Piccolo again cause his case of being KO'd by Beerus had similar cases to Gohan being KO'd by Frieza, which we all know had nothing to do with pressure points. The planet has 10x the durability because Goku was able to punch through it (BoG movie) and his punches was strong enough to tug up the crust on the planet without completely disfiguring it like how he did on the Realm of the Kaioshin fighting Kid Buu. The only thing keeping King Kai's planet from being categorized as a legit planet is the fact it has no core in the center. I said that to give you context on why, Frieza's the cause no one can live there. What he do? He destroyed it. You claiming that pieces being present means the planet wasn't all that destroyed as a argument. You're the literal FIRST to have ever came to this conclusion ever since I've been here on this forum. Many debates in the past and even past references are all scaled from Frieza's displays of power. The Androids are capable of destroying earth since they're stronger then Frieza but just cause they never do it doesn't mean they can't. The way you going about makes it seems like they can't really destroy the planet since they will only leave debris and pieces. Toriyama didn't put science behind that particular instance. As we saw it, Namek was to create a huge explosion, and Frieza survived it. There is no science there, it's just to look cool and give us a feat of Frieza surviving something of that caliber. And Frieza was injured from a Spirit Bomb, and was pretty much whooped on by Super Saiyan Goku, prior to the statement of not wanting to take damage. Its understandable that he wouldn't want to take any unnecessary damage if he could help it. Frieza spewed blood from Goku's punches and in the future did what the planet explosion's could not, so even if his punches weren't planet level (lowballing btw) his punches approached that level of potency since he could injure him when a planet's explosion only KO'd him. Assuming that O Me Ga'd is right about Frieza losing 20% and only living on 1%, that's just a 19% difference that'd he took on. If he was at 100% he be left with 81% instead. He wouldn't have to Fear anything since he'd survive Vegeta's attempt, there's a reason Vegeta feared him for decades. |
![]() Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| Tinny | Feb 12 2017, 09:09 PM Post #64 |
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I'm sorry I'm ignoring the rest of your post right now but just that last part I read just...Let me get this straight. You're telling me that Vegeta, with a casual two finger blast, can wipe out almost a fifth of 100% Final Form Freeza's strength. If I recall correctly, Vegeta has a power level of 18,000. 180,000 at Oozaru. That blast was casual, and therefore we can almost certainly say it was not using all of it, certainly nowhere near him as Oozaru, and certainly not using any amp to build that above it. For now I'm gonna use the daizenshuu, Nappa is at around 4000 to 7000 depending on who you ask. Chiaozu is at 610 or so, Nappa is anywhere from 6.5 to 11.5 times more powerful. Chiaozu blowing himself up did absolutely nothing. Gohna's masenko was iirc around 2800? at minimum, Nappa less than twice as powerful and at most (assuming 7000) 2.5 times stronger. Freeza's first form is 530,000. Freeza is more than 29 times more powerful than saiyan saga Vegeta. Final form Freeza is far more powerful than first form Freeza. And you're telling me Vegeta can do a full 19% damage to Freeza with a two finger casual blast. 18,000 Vegeta vs Final Form Freeza, and Vegeta can just wipe out a fifth of his strength with two fingers? Even if we limit ourselves to the manga that's Vegeta's galick gun of all things... I think more powerful than kkx20 Kamehameha? Rivaling it maybe? Fastly approaching it at least. I'm bowing out of the conversation, this has gotten too wild for me. Edited by Tinny, Feb 12 2017, 09:16 PM.
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| Mihawk | Feb 12 2017, 09:13 PM Post #65 |
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I never agreed with the Potency of AoE theories, I prefer to just accept the given feats and not over analyze beyond that for creating a list of feats. As for why their punches are so weak compared to Ki interactions I like the explanation of split durability. Freeza's case is easily explained by having a third set of durability which is planet destruction durability. People with higher power levels in the magnitude of 100x or more (idk anything about PLs) were scared of not being able to live a planet's destruction when Cell made the threat despite the fact that they'd have 2-3 minutes of breathing to move everyone to King Kai's planet via IT. Goku literally said "I can't think of any other way" ruling out every other possibility that could happen. Freeza himself was scared of getting caught up in it so that takes care of the idea that the only issue was breathing in space. And if you're one of the people that consider Super or the movies to be canon, it appears that even Beerus had to run away from a planet's destruction. He can breathe in space, yet Whis had to create a protective sphere for them. He's seen multiple times running away from planet's destruction before they can happen. Not a single instance where anyone that doesn't have Freeza's DNA was able to survive a planet's destruction. Also explains why Trunks had to destroy Freeza down to every single cell. |
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| + Kyouks | Feb 12 2017, 09:20 PM Post #66 |
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I always knew my Galick Gun > Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha theory held water. F***in mods threatened to ban me for "trolling" smh. |
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| + Solid Snake | Feb 12 2017, 10:58 PM Post #67 |
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Tinny- No, that's not what I'm saying, I was using O Me Ga'd's estimation to show that damage from a planet's explosion was nothing Frieza wouldn't be able to survive. Vegeta's planet busting ki blast on the Arlia is nothing Frieza has to worry about since he's evidently the stronger of the two. Mihawk- There's no third set of durability, it sounds like you're just trying to nerf Frieza actual durability which also nerfs and weakens DB. And what you mean they had breathing room? There's around 7 billion people on the planet at least, and the only way for them to literally save everyone they'd have to authorize that type of transport with King Furry and would have to convince Mr. Satan to get the people of earth to comply and believe him. That is gonna be near impossible since Mr. Satan at this time is super selfish and oblivious to what ki is. So no, Goku made the right and only choice available that they'd had. On to the matter that they were afraid, the humans still have to deal with lack of oxygen, they might be able to survive them but that doesn't mean they'd live long unless they're Frieza secretly. Frieza wasn't scared at all, he shown no facial expression like the humans that he was scared, at best he was being wary of simply taking unnecessary damage when he have time to leave. When did Beerus run from a planet explosion? Whis put the barrier around the others so that they can live, I believe Bulma asks Beerus this and in return for foods, he'd protect her which had the rest of the gang with him too. So no, Beerus isn't not afraid of a planet's explosion. He was willing to destroy the universe and two if you think two GoDs clashing will destroy each respective universes. Edited by Solid Snake, Feb 12 2017, 11:17 PM.
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![]() Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
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| Mihawk | Feb 12 2017, 11:19 PM Post #68 |
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Freeza's special DNA is hinted at towards his ability to survive a planet's destruction. The breathing is hinted as being one of the major reasons that he can survive, but it's certainly not hinted as being the only reason. When King Kai says that only he can breathe after a planet collapses, he's probably referring to the fact that everyone has enough speed to run away from the planet but then have nowhere to go afterwards. He could easily have wished them back using Namek's dragon balls along with Earth's. He could've saved his friends if he wanted to as well. There were a ton of scenarios that could have been done, the only issue was that they couldn't live through a planet's destruction. That's why he said he couldn't think of any other way. He even said that multiple times for emphasis. Goku claimed that Freeza was scared of getting caught up in the blast. "Unnecessary" isn't the right word to use at all. Maybe he didn't have enough energy to survive at that point? Not sure, but he was definitely scared of the damage it could cause to him. And Beerus was the one who requested the protection barrier back when he didn't really care about the Earthlings as much. He requested it before it even started, and was required to stay within it even later on. He also knew that Whis was going to turn back time regardless. Here was the scene I was talking about There just isn't a single instance of anyone living through a planet being destroyed except Freeza or someone with an equivalent of his DNA. |
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| + Solid Snake | Feb 12 2017, 11:44 PM Post #69 |
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Frieza surviving Namek's explosion just means it didn't inflict enough damage to kill him and instead KO him, Frieza was durable enough and could live without oxygen. King Kai, Frieza and Goku both makes it clear that without oxygen, Goku will die, there's no way to look at it differently. How do we know if Goku was skilled enough to do that though? He only showed the ability to teleport others (3 or more) after the training he did during the timeskip. If Goku could've, he would've did so, so that means he couldn't at that moment. Okay, yeah Goku did say that true, but Frieza was intent on destroying the planet outright, hr just subconsciously held off power in hopes he could have the extra time to get to space where he'd be safe from taking damage. He had energy to survive since that Frieza was much more healthy compared to the one at the end where Namek exploded. But I'm willing to leave that as a toss up cause he still survived it while weakened a LOT. He didn't true, but like I said, with Bulma he had incentive to keep her and by extension, earth, safe. He knew as long as she remains alive, he'd receive food, which he happens to be extremely fond of. So yeah, he made the barrier to protect those nearby not from himself. Okay, assuming you're right, they were willing to destroy at least 2 universes (actually 3 to 6 macroverses due to otherworld and Kaioshin realm to be nearly two universes too, but I'm lowballing) just cause Beerus ate Champa's birthday treat. These guys werent even serious at all, and their punching aoe even outright busted multiple planets. Planet explosions to them is like getting bitten like a small insignificant insect. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 13 2017, 12:00 AM Post #70 |
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Just something I wanted to note. Beerus also said he enjoys watching a planet exploding. Idk which scene you're talking about with whis putting a barrier around them but it could've been for two reasons: Heat or because they were protecting goku and co. too Anyway, I know I'm always the one arguing Frieza didn't even take half the planet explosion but after rewatching the scene where it explodes I'm starting to wonder whether it matters how far he was from the center of the explosion. Look at how big the explosion is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5rheoSsfBU :45 look at how big the planet is and then look at the explosion |
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| Mihawk | Feb 13 2017, 12:20 AM Post #71 |
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True, I just wanted to point out that he was still scared of it to some extent.
He could've at least taken some of them at the time. He says there was literally no other way, meaning that something was stopping him from doing it like time to get everyone rounded up and not scare Cell off into going early. It doesn't matter what the reason is just that something was stopping him from doing it beforehand. However, there's no way that time issue could exist afterwards (they should at least be able to hold their breath for 2-3 minutes), so he should've been able to do it if they could indeed survive.
Yup, I only disagree with the extra conclusion that you're drawing from their statements that Goku can live the planet's explosion. They made it clear that they're referring to, if I remember the quote correctly, that in the absence of a planet being there only Freeza can survive. They aren't saying what you want it to say that means that anyone else can live through a planet's destruction which wasn't hinted towards at all.
Yeah while I agree that Freeza could survive and all, my only point is that even he's scared of it despite planet destroying blasts are something already introduced in the Saiyan saga. While he had less energy, the point is still that breathing doesn't have to be the only factor. I'm only disputing that because (I think) you're saying that breathing is the only factor here.
He was about to reverse time regardless. It sounded like he specifically requested it including himself.
Even in that case, there wasn't a scenario where they'd be caught up in the aftermath. The three durability explanation seems to work here work as well, since their punching strength would have been brought up in Super, but their ability to live through a planet's collapse with all the radiation and heat issues would still be low due to not having the DNA for it. Although I personally don't try to apply logic to Super, considering Goku had to go SSJ to counter boulders coming down on him. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 13 2017, 12:44 AM Post #72 |
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Nobody is going to read this? What's this third durability? I'm not sure I buy it tbh but I don't understand what you're getting at? That the raw force of explosions are separate from energy blasts and punches? Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 13 2017, 12:45 AM.
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| + Solid Snake | Feb 13 2017, 06:43 AM Post #73 |
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Probably, but that doesn't prove it was a good idea. The mere threat of Cell's destroying earth was too great to chance since like you said, would cause him to blow immediately. Goku's option was the best solution logic wise and out of universe wise. If the planet isn't there, what air is Goku going to breathe? The whole point of destroying Namek is so he can take advantage of his ability to survive space. A planet explosion is different then a ki blast with planet level destruction in terms of deadliness. If the planet explodes, it's game over since whoever can't survive in space will die. A planet busting ki blast is something that's condensed and can be tanked, or reflected so it isn't an immediate threat. Notice how Super Saiyan Goku was expecting Frieza to use the planet busting ki blast on him and being shocked at the fact he used it on Namek instead? Afterwards, Goku noted Frieza didn't want to get caught up in the explosion and die after. Here, Frieza announced he could survive in space I believe so at this point, its known that he planned to suffocate Goku. I'll have to reexamine that scene. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 13 2017, 07:27 AM Post #74 |
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Why does it matter whether someone can survive a planet explosion? I understand that there's another durability regarding heat resistance, etc. But just the raw force of an explosion? That's what's important and I don't see how it's necessary to have a third durability for that. Frieza took the force of the planet exploding and I have to wonder...look at the size that explosion. It's so big that he's relatively close to the center. So Frieza being deep(water was rushing in for a for a while) in the ground on namek when it exploded means he probably took a decent amount of it no? Even if he took like...1/10th of the force of the explosion that should be impressive no? Not enough to debunk split durability but it means that their punches should be nearing moon level right? Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 13 2017, 07:49 AM.
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| + Solid Snake | Feb 13 2017, 07:32 AM Post #75 |
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Exactly, though moon level is EXTREMELY lowballing to be honest. |
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