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Attack Potency vs Split Durability
Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 05:46 PM (3,465 Views)
+ Ssj3vegito96
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Solid snake-look at this

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That's a supernova but it's the same idea as the planet explosion

It's a valid feat for sure. I'm not denying it's impressive. But it's not putting him at planet level
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Feb 11 2017, 06:37 PM
They broke yeah but my point is that those same boulders wouldn't hurt him if he was to be sent crashing into em.

I don't know how to explain it but I think the objects are somewhat reinforced with the users strength, sorta like an extension or something of themselves that they can use as "third limbs" or something. Put it like this, Goten throwing pebbles at Gohan made him fear getting killed due to the sheer speed and power of the user. Those same pebbles went right through a boulder. Now you try doing that, did or would you get the exact same results if you threw it as hard as you could?
So, they're reinforced with the user's strength, but not reinforced with the user's Ki? The idea of being 'reinforced by strength' makes less sense than them being reinforced by Ki.

If they're infused with Ki, that could provide a barrier around them or strengthen the composing elements. If it's just by their strength, then that doesn't change the qualities of the object at all.
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Maybe vegeta's ki(the rings around his wrist) may be interfering
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Ssj3Vegito96- if that blue circle represents the supernova, then if I'm on the surface when it explodes, then I'm still gonna take a majority of the blast.

Nagito & Tinny- https://youtu.be/WxFy3swAAYwjjj

This comtains both Superman and Supergirl doing the example I was hinting at. But Nagito, they don't have to use ki to strengthen the items they use. Ki would help make them even more potent I guess, but their defaulted strength willl still supplement whatever item/object they'd use.
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Feb 11 2017, 06:56 PM
Ssj3Vegito96- if that blue circle represents the supernova, then if I'm on the surface when it explodes, then I'm still gonna take a majority of the blast.

Nagito & Tinny- https://youtu.be/WxFy3swAAYwjjj

This comtains both Superman and Supergirl doing the example I was hinting at. But Nagito, they don't have to use ki to strengthen the items they use. Ki would help make them even more potent I guess, but their defaulted strength willl still supplement whatever item/object they'd use.
How? You say that it doesn't work with regular humans, but if I swing an object that isn't durable and hit a plank of wood, it's going to break. At what point does a person's strength 'supplement' the object?
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Tinny
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Feb 11 2017, 06:56 PM
Ssj3Vegito96- if that blue circle represents the supernova, then if I'm on the surface when it explodes, then I'm still gonna take a majority of the blast.

Nagito & Tinny- https://youtu.be/WxFy3swAAYwjjj

This comtains both Superman and Supergirl doing the example I was hinting at. But Nagito, they don't have to use ki to strengthen the items they use. Ki would help make them even more potent I guess, but their defaulted strength willl still supplement whatever item/object they'd use.
looking at the graph, it seems the fraction hitting the person is so small it wouldn't destroy the moon, and that's a supernova. And no, it doesn't represent the supernova, it represents the center of of the supernova. If anything that just shows that Freeza is not planet level if he's scared of the planet blowing up when he's nowhere near the epicenter.

Once again, the peanut should still break, Trunk's sword didn't. Now either Black is weak against attacks like that sword throw, or that sword has universe+ durability, because it came back just fine.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 11 2017, 07:06 PM.
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Nagito- The entire time that the object is I'm control of said object. Beerus even used chopsticks to defeat Piccolo, not cause they were planet level in durability but cause they were in the hands of an overwhelmingly strong being, and a combination of pressure points too I guess.

Tinny- Regardless though, if standing on the surface of it would still expose you to most of it energy, Frieza is still taking at least 50% or even more damage from the planet's explosion.
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No. The point is that it's exploding from the inside out. So being on the surface means he's not taking most of the explosion. We saw chunks of the planet not totally vaporized by the explosion when Frieza was floating through space

I came across those pics on comicvine lol. So I'm not sure how accurate it is but they make sense still
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 11 2017, 07:38 PM.
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Feb 11 2017, 07:19 PM
Nagito- The entire time that the object is I'm control of said object. Beerus even used chopsticks to defeat Piccolo, not cause they were planet level in durability but cause they were in the hands of an overwhelmingly strong being, and a combination of pressure points too I guess.

Tinny- Regardless though, if standing on the surface of it would still expose you to most of it energy, Frieza is still taking at least 50% or even more damage from the planet's explosion.
What are you talking about? In Super Beerus at no point uses chopsticks, and in the movies they never get to even galaxy busting, and while we're at it Beerus used chop sticks in a way that implied that the pressure points were being hit as well.

Where'd you pull 50% from? Again, consider that in that image, as Vegito mentioned, there were bits and pieces of Namek still floating around
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How in the world did Freeza take a planet busting explosion when the planet he was on isn't even all that destroyed? Freeza took a pounding, even in the anime where there was half his body left, bu that's still not indicative of physical planet busting durability because the planet wasn't even all that destroyed, and once again, Freeza only took a fraction just by the fact that he wasn't at the center of it, possibly less considering there's still ground around, it's not at all hard to argue that Freeza was also partially shielded by the bits of planet that wasn't blown up. There's no way he took even half the full force of the blast, and even assuming he did, that's still evidence of split durability because half a planet is not equal to a whole planet, which he did in his first form.
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I have a question

Goku can lift energy blasts that weigh more than the normal weights he can lift do. But is there any reason to apply this to their punching? Ki doesn't really increase lifting strength that much but it seems to make their punches a lot stronger regardless of whether it's ki or a person or the environment. Maybe that's why they're able to deflect the blasts. Because ki is actually making their punches that strong not just because they're are ki blasts. So do you think it's different and we don't necessarily have to apply it their punches?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 11 2017, 08:52 PM.
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In the movie they're solar system level, but I'm saying Beerus is able to put down planet level beings by simply him using the chopsticks. There's nothing at all indicating the chopsticks are anything special. Pressure points could explain that but I don't think Beerus knew of Namekian's biology.

It doesn't matter if there's pieces or not, Namek wasn't habitual no more due to it's destruction. When that core is gone, that planet's gone so saying it isn't planet busting is...just crazy to be frank.

Frieza being shielded is a poor argument. If someone puts a TNT explosive on a side of the wall and you on the other side and it blows, you might not get hit with all of it, but a majority of it's force will kill you no question and the wall will no longer be there but there will be debris.
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Nagito Komaeda
Feb 11 2017, 06:40 PM
Solid Snake
Feb 11 2017, 06:37 PM
They broke yeah but my point is that those same boulders wouldn't hurt him if he was to be sent crashing into em.

I don't know how to explain it but I think the objects are somewhat reinforced with the users strength, sorta like an extension or something of themselves that they can use as "third limbs" or something. Put it like this, Goten throwing pebbles at Gohan made him fear getting killed due to the sheer speed and power of the user. Those same pebbles went right through a boulder. Now you try doing that, did or would you get the exact same results if you threw it as hard as you could?
So, they're reinforced with the user's strength, but not reinforced with the user's Ki? The idea of being 'reinforced by strength' makes less sense than them being reinforced by Ki.

If they're infused with Ki, that could provide a barrier around them or strengthen the composing elements. If it's just by their strength, then that doesn't change the qualities of the object at all.
fam this s*** is wack please

imho super perfect cell > boo
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Feb 11 2017, 10:34 PM
In the movie they're solar system level, but I'm saying Beerus is able to put down planet level beings by simply him using the chopsticks. There's nothing at all indicating the chopsticks are anything special. Pressure points could explain that but I don't think Beerus knew of Namekian's biology.

It doesn't matter if there's pieces or not, Namek wasn't habitual no more due to it's destruction. When that core is gone, that planet's gone so saying it isn't planet busting is...just crazy to be frank.

Frieza being shielded is a poor argument. If someone puts a TNT explosive on a side of the wall and you on the other side and it blows, you might not get hit with all of it, but a majority of it's force will kill you no question and the wall will no longer be there but there will be debris.
It sounded quite different from a regular punch and left Piccolo standing without pupils and falling down only a bit afterwords. What would you say Beerus did? It clearly wasn't smacking him with said chopsticks. And I will say I find it odd that no one brings up Tien, getting thrown which is an argument to be had, though again, I'd say that's the from what I can tell considered now noncanon movies, and even then split durability is still at play since none of them ever punch hard enough to destroy a planet (no King Kai's planet doesn't count, it doesn't act anything like a planet).

The logic of Namek not being habitable thus it being "busted" is also insane, by that logic, if I take all the atmosphere from Earth, I'm a planet buster, since it's not habitable anymore. The planet is still clearly there, albiet in multiple parts.

How is it a poor argument? This is not a wall falling on top of you from the force of the explosion(which iirc is why it's still deadly), you're being blasted up with the wall. By that logic us walking on Earth means we have planet level durability, or us walking on an airplane means we have vehicle level durability, both of which are false.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 11 2017, 10:45 PM.
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And Frieza punched Gohan in the gut and made him without pupils, doesn't mean he used a pressure point strike. And you do bring up a good point, Tien was thrown with the chopsticks, which indicates that Beerus strength could still be leveraged. There's no straight forward canon so I can use this info if I wish. King Kai's planet is still a durable piece of rock that's 10x stronger then earth's so Goku punching threw it is still viable.

When I said it wasn't habitual I meant in the context on how it was destroyed. No one could live there cause it was destroyed by Frieza. If Frieza got rid of the planet's atmosphere, then it would be nonhabitual due to it being life-wiped.


Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P10.1-4
Freeza: “Though we’ve avoided having the planet instantly explode, its core has been destroyed…Do you know what that means? Even if left alone, after 5 minutes this time there will definitely be a huge explosion, and Planet Namek will become space dust…”
Goku: “What!?...5 minutes will be enough for me to defeat you and escape in the spaceship I rode here from Earth.”

Goku was told there will be a huge explosion, that's all I need to know that if they survived this they have that much durability. No exceptions. You guys are overanalyzing too much into this to prove something that's already refuted.
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Solid Snake
Feb 11 2017, 11:30 PM
And Frieza punched Gohan in the gut and made him without pupils, doesn't mean he used a pressure point strike. And you do bring up a good point, Tien was thrown with the chopsticks, which indicates that Beerus strength could still be leveraged. There's no straight forward canon so I can use this info if I wish. King Kai's planet is still a durable piece of rock that's 10x stronger then earth's so Goku punching threw it is still viable.

When I said it wasn't habitual I meant in the context on how it was destroyed. No one could live there cause it was destroyed by Frieza. If Frieza got rid of the planet's atmosphere, then it would be nonhabitual due to it being life-wiped.


Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P10.1-4
Freeza: “Though we’ve avoided having the planet instantly explode, its core has been destroyed…Do you know what that means? Even if left alone, after 5 minutes this time there will definitely be a huge explosion, and Planet Namek will become space dust…”
Goku: “What!?...5 minutes will be enough for me to defeat you and escape in the spaceship I rode here from Earth.”

Goku was told there will be a huge explosion, that's all I need to know that if they survived this they have that much durability. No exceptions. You guys are overanalyzing too much into this to prove something that's already refuted.
You notably didn't point out the sound design or Piccolo's reaction. And I keep hearing that thrown around, that it's ten times stronger than Earth, yet I never see anything resembling evidence for it. Where do you get that number? And no gravity doesn't work, this 'planet' has nothing in common with the celestial bodies in space.

So then why bring up whether you could live on Namek then? It's obvious no life is gonna grow on there no matter what, and agian, there are still pieces of ground around that weren't blown up, why do you suppose that is? Do you think Namek has Sun level durability rocks or something?

It is a huge explosion, of which Freeza is taking a fraction, which is still an extraordinary amount. Not a "planet busting attack" as you keep saying if Freeza is only taking some of it. Even if I take you at your word that still helps prove split durability because Freeza was popping off enourmous planet busting attacks casually in his first form (one finger) and fears the planet exploding. Unless we're now going with the idea that first form freeza>final form Freeza in any way, that still doesn't disprove split durability. And once again, I don't why you think that just because Freeza is taking a fraction of the explosion and not 100% of it that he's weaker in anything but a purely hypothetical sense. It's still a planet exploding. Split durability is debunked the same way gravity is. You've at best given an alternative that brings with it a hundred different explanations. Split Durability gives one simpler reason for situations like this

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and this
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(Neither of which are actually bad feats by the way, despite what some may think)

And yet they can apparently shoot off, deflect, and physically defend against energy attacks that can destroy planets, especially in the anime where Vegeta casually does so before he even reaches Earth.


Thinking about it even further, the anime especially favors split durability when you take Arlia and Freeza not wanting to there when Namek blows up and really taking any damage from it. As long as we're taking anything we can use from literally anywhere, I feel this plot point is worth mentioning, I mean, let's be honest
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Freeza has nothing to fear from that attack. Goku at the point he fights Freeza presumably doesn't either, so...

Why should Freeza have anything to feel from a planet exploding when base state, nothing special, saiyan saga Vegeta can apparently do it in the anime with two fingers in about most casual way he can, unless the english version cut out an hour of powering up and screaming and effort from Vegeta, planet busting blasts is a thing they've had since early casual saiyan saga, and yet the planet blowing up is something that could cause Freeza to lose any strength, as well as knocking him out as we've both agreed on. And even if we assume Vegeta powered up a lot over this, I still have to ask why Freeza would be scared of saiyan saga Vegeta even if he goes full power, as long as we're going with this whole attack potency idea, and we know that Freeza able to be hurt by the planet exploding.

The answer, is split durability, Freeza takes ki attacks better than he does physical ones and we see this again and again over and over. You can more more "debunk" split durability than you can gravity, you can only at best provide a more complicated alternative.
Edited by Tinny, Feb 12 2017, 04:07 PM.
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