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Was 2nd form Freeza initially over a million?
Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 05:09 PM (2,264 Views)
ahill1
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Pyrus
Feb 11 2017, 11:24 PM
The "perhaps I've overdone it" is the kicker for me. That phrase has no meaning in the passage if he's speaking about what his full power could be, rather than what it is now.
I honestly don't see how. Could you explain to me?
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ahill1
Feb 12 2017, 03:40 AM
Pyrus
Feb 11 2017, 11:24 PM
The "perhaps I've overdone it" is the kicker for me. That phrase has no meaning in the passage if he's speaking about what his full power could be, rather than what it is now.
I honestly don't see how. Could you explain to me?
What's the point in saying he's overdone it if his power hasn't reached the one million mark yet?
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ahill1
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What did he overdone? He said that right after transforming, right?
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ahill1
Feb 12 2017, 04:00 AM
What did he overdone? He said that right after transforming, right?
Yeah. He talks about his power being over 1,000,000 as if that's excessive, but if he wasn't yet there, how did he overdo it?
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freezamite
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"Kyouks"
 
I'm not really sure why Toriyama chose to portray power-ups and such the way he did, but it's clear from Vegeta's statement that the surprise doesn't entirely come from the fact that there's more power Freeza can dish out, but from the fact that Freeza has the ability to control his chi in such a manner to begin with. Whatever Freeza did in his first form is the same as whatever Vegeta did when he powered up on Earth.

Well, Freezer stated that he couldn't control well his power in that form (and it was true, in a certain sense) so it's possible that this influenced Vegeta's opinion on what he should be able to do.

"Kyouks"
 
Why is enraged Gohan 30k at best? Krillin at 10k? Vegeta stated that their powers had been growing to the extent that they could help out against even Freeza, no?

Un-enraged Gohan was the one at 30k. Regarding Krillin, his big power up came from when the Great Namekian unlocked his dormant power, but he had no zenkays nor anything else.
What Krilin had was amazing techniques like the kienzan (he almost killed Freezer with it) that allowed him to defeat much stronger opponents.
Regarding Gohan, Vegeta already knew that his power could increase a lot when he enraged, so he was counting on that (I think he even mentions it).

"Kyouks"
 
In any case, my point is that the intent behind the scenes is lost if Freeza wasn't already over a million. Again, why would Toriyama make a big deal out of Freeza being able to power up if it was already known to the reader that he wasn't using his full power? It doesn't matter if Freeza can replicate his feats at 600k; Toriyama chose to use 1 million.

But the reader already knew Freezer wasn't using all his strength, it's the first thing Freezer says after attacking in that form:
"...Of course, that was nothing. Even saiyans could do that".

What I mean is, we have two very similar situations. Freezer vs Nail and Freezer 2nd form vs the z-warriors. In both of those situations, Freezer brags about his power with no intention of using it all, and in both situations, if his intention is to presume of strength, speaking about suppressed powers makes no sense for him.

I mean, against Nail he says:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.4
Freeza: "My battle power is 530,000. But of course, I don't intend to fight you at full power, so you can relax..."


Against the z-warriors, he says:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P9.1-2
Context: After Freeza transforms for the first time
Freeza: "At any rate, my power is excessive. Perhaps I've overdone it... Kukkukku... Incidentally, if [my strength] were put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,000, surely..."

Quote:
 
Chapter: 296 (DBZ 102), P12.3
Context: after reducing the surrounding land to sea in a big explosion
Freeza: “Hahhahhah…Well, as I’d expect, all of you are pretty quick at running away. This just now was merely my way of saying "hello". Even Saiyans can do a thing like this.”

Quote:
 
Chapter: 297 (DBZ 103), P2.4
Context: as Freeza stabs into Kuririn
Freeza: “Whoops, sorry about that. Seems I really do have too much power for me to properly control myself.”


He isn't saying that he is using, at that moment, a power greater than one million. He says that he has more than one million units of power in the same sense he said he had 530k units of power against Nail.
He was presuming about how powerful he was. To give a lower number would make sense if Freezer wanted to seem weaker to fool his opponents, but those weren't his intentions at all.

"Kyouks"
 
Like I said before, he could've bragged after attacking Krillin, like "You all seem afraid. I'll have you know that I'm not even serious right now."

Well, that's what he did (with different words, of course). I mean, he said "Seems I really do have too much power for me to properly control myself" which means that he was clearly controlling himself to a certain degree (although in the context he says it, I think him stabbing Krillin was done on purpose and he said that to terrorise the z-warriors even more).

"Kyouks"
 
Out-of-universe, Toriyama simply chose to convey the information in a different way and that's totally fine. Rather than have Freeza brag, he has Gohan cut him off with what seems to be an effective attack, but surprise surprise, it actually wasn't all that effective and Freeza's got even more in the tank--oh no! This is a standard way to build tension and is more effective if Freeza doesn't state that he was suppressed beforehand.

If Toriyama wanted to do that, he wouldn't have ruined the surprise with Vegeta's comment on the subject. I mean, even before we see Freezer enduring Gohan's attack like nothing Vegeta already anticipates the result (Freezer not having been that much affected by Gohan's attack) and he does it 1 page before Freezer is shown getting up after the attack.

"Kyouks"
 
If he's a robot that acts the exact same way all the time, then sure. Again, I could easily make a similar argument--against Nail he said "I'm actually 530k but I won't use all of that right now," so he didn't use 530k. Against Vegeta, "I'm actually 1 million+," and nothing else, so he used the 1 million+.

It's not him being a robot, it's just him being coherent. If you want to brag about something you don't make it look worse than it really is.
And besides Freezer stating in the very same sentence were he states his power being over 1 million "I don't know if I'll be able to control it", the next thing he says is "even a saiyan could do that" which clearly reinforces the idea of him not going all out.
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It doesn't matter; just so long as Freeza's power difference from Form 1 is much greater than Vegeta expected.

Freeza 1 (Max Power) = 530 000

Freeza 2 (Projected) = 530 000 * 1.25 = 662 500
Freeza 2 ≥ 530 000 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 828 125
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freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
Un-enraged Gohan was the one at 30k. Regarding Krillin, his big power up came from when the Great Namekian unlocked his dormant power, but he had no zenkays nor anything else.
This goes contrary to what Vegeta said though.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
Regarding Gohan, Vegeta already knew that his power could increase a lot when he enraged, so he was counting on that (I think he even mentions it).
He does but it was a separate statement. Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't apply to Krillin.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
But the reader already knew Freezer wasn't using all his strength, it's the first thing Freezer says after attacking in that form:
"...Of course, that was nothing. Even saiyans could do that".
You can have a power level of x but use an attack at x/2. Also, I doubt he was directly comparing his actual power level, because that'd make no sense whether he was 600k or 1m.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
[...]
He isn't saying that he is using, at that moment, a power greater than one million. He says that he has more than one million units of power in the same sense he said he had 530k units of power against Nail.
He was presuming about how powerful he was. To give a lower number would make sense if Freezer wanted to seem weaker to fool his opponents, but those weren't his intentions at all.
The statements are different, I acknowledge that. But I find it pretty hard to read "my power is excessive, perhaps I've overdone it, btw my power is 1,000,000" and not think that he's talking about the here and now. Even if I agreed with your mindset on the differences between the Nail/Vegeta statements meaning anything, I would still prioritize the flow of these scenes on their own (which I've explained before). Like I said before, he also says nothing about not being serious in his true form until he actually gets a little serious. He also wouldn't be making himself appear weaker to fool anyone because he wasn't even using his full strength yet, but was still more than strong enough to handle non-enraged Gohan and co.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
Well, that's what he did (with different words, of course). I mean, he said "Seems I really do have too much power for me to properly control myself" which means that he was clearly controlling himself to a certain degree (although in the context he says it, I think him stabbing Krillin was done on purpose and he said that to terrorise the z-warriors even more).
I agree with the second part, which is why I don't think the scene really works as evidence for the first part. Like I said earlier, the statement would make sense even if Freeza was at full power.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
If Toriyama wanted to do that, he wouldn't have ruined the surprise with Vegeta's comment on the subject. I mean, even before we see Freezer enduring Gohan's attack like nothing Vegeta already anticipates the result (Freezer not having been that much affected by Gohan's attack) and he does it 1 page before Freezer is shown getting up after the attack.
Vegeta anticipating the result is different from Freeza revealing he has more power in store (which surprised Vegeta) and functions as a surprise on its own. Both were surprises to the reader and Gohan/Krillin, the latter was a surprise for all involved.
freezamite
Feb 15 2017, 01:27 AM
It's not him being a robot, it's just him being coherent. If you want to brag about something you don't make it look worse than it really is.
Not mentioning his full power doesn't make him incoherent though. He's not making himself look worse, it's just a different way of making something look impressive. You could brag about it outright--"I'm this strong, but I don't even need to go all out"--or you could make a show of it--"Here's how ridiculous my power is. Bet you won't believe it if I told you there's more."

Rejected
Feb 15 2017, 06:22 PM
It doesn't matter; just so long as Freeza's power difference from Form 1 is much greater than Vegeta expected.

Freeza 1 (Max Power) = 530 000

Freeza 2 (Projected) = 530 000 * 1.25 = 662 500
Freeza 2 ≥ 530 000 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 828 125
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Kyouks
Feb 16 2017, 07:25 AM
Rejected
Feb 15 2017, 06:22 PM
It doesn't matter; just so long as Freeza's power difference from Form 1 is much greater than Vegeta expected.

Freeza 1 (Max Power) = 530 000

Freeza 2 (Projected) = 530 000 * 1.25 = 662 500
Freeza 2 ≥ 530 000 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 828 125
They are trying to replace you. Be wary.
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freezamite
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"Kyouks"
 
This goes contrary to what Vegeta said though.

Yeah, thinking about it, my 30K Gohan came because he couldn't follow Goku's movements when he fought Reecoome even after the zenkay power, but at that point he couldn't possibly be aware of how strong he had become (like Vegeta) so him being stronger than that is very possible.

"Kyouks"
 
You can have a power level of x but use an attack at x/2. Also, I doubt he was directly comparing his actual power level, because that'd make no sense whether he was 600k or 1m.

Yes, you can, but if according to you Toriyama wanted to make Freezer look as if him was going at maximum strength, that would clearly go against that purpose, don't you think?

"Kyouks"
 
But I find it pretty hard to read "my power is excessive, perhaps I've overdone it, btw my power is 1,000,000" and not think that he's talking about the here and now. Even if I agreed with your mindset on the differences between the Nail/Vegeta statements meaning anything, I would still prioritize the flow of these scenes on their own (which I've explained before).

Remember that Freezer only transformed because Vegeta told him to do so. When he fought Vegeta at his weakest form it was obvious that Freezer had much more power in reserve than Vegeta (Vegeta is already panting while Freezer is not tired at all), he didn't transform for necessity like when he goes from his 3rd to his 2nd form against Piccolo, so that would totally justify his "perhaps I've overdone it".
He could've won against those three (Gohan's rage boosts a part, but Freezer didn't know this) without transforming, but he still transformed.

Furthermore, you have to think on the purpose of that sentence. Why would Freezer give his suppressed number if he wanted to show them how terrible he was? That's as if I won the lottery, wanted to brag about how much I won, and I tell my friends I've won much less than I had won in reality. It defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do, don't you think?

"Kyouks"
 
Like I said before, he also says nothing about not being serious in his true form until he actually gets a little serious.

Him stating that even a saiyan could do that or his statement about him having problems to control his power all demonstrate that he wasn't being serious. Yes, you can say "he wasn't speaking of his power but of his attacks", but he still wouldn't be serious if he was attacking with a fraction of his strength.
So him acting as if he was serious in one vignette and doing the opposite in the next one doesn't make much sense.

"Kyouks"
 
I agree with the second part, which is why I don't think the scene really works as evidence for the first part. Like I said earlier, the statement would make sense even if Freeza was at full power.

Well, if you analyse it from a character's perspective (instead of Toriyama does whatever he wants to do at any point and for any reason) Freezer wanted to brag about his power, so it makes sense.
Him stating his highest power (in that form), among him saying "hey I'm so strong I can't even control myself" all follow the same purpose: stating how incredibly strong he was.
On the other hand, him speaking of a suppressed power to supposedly fool the z-warriors into making them believe he is weaker than he really is, and then brag about how hard it is for him to control his power it's contradictory, don't you think?

"Kyouks"
 
Vegeta anticipating the result is different from Freeza revealing he has more power in store (which surprised Vegeta) and functions as a surprise on its own. Both were surprises to the reader and Gohan/Krillin, the latter was a surprise for all involved.

Even if that was the case, the reader doesn't know how it feels to have 1 million power of energy, so him going from 800k to 900k or from 1m to 1,1m it's the same in that sense.

"Kyouks"
 
He's not making himself look worse

He is if he doesn't increase his power afterwards, which is obvious he didn't have any intention to do. It's not like he had any intention to do that until Gohan kicked his a*** after getting angry.
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