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| Was 2nd form Freeza initially over a million? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 05:09 PM (2,266 Views) | |
| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 10:12 PM Post #16 |
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But that's where we disagree. I mean, as I see it, when the strength changes, the scoutter number also changes. On the other hand, when Vegeta showed his power to Goku in the earth, the scoutter wouldn't have changed because Vegeta's strength didn't change at all, as it was proved by the fact that he was already above the KKx2 before doing his power showing performance. Of course, that needs Vegeta to be 18K to work, because if he's higher than that then it can be argued that he beat the KKx2 with 18k and increased his strength afterwards (but why do you think that was the case? I mean, it was stated pretty clearly that Vegeta's power was just 18k). |
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| Vertical | Feb 10 2017, 11:26 PM Post #17 |
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He was 18,000. But both he and Freeza make note of how he's been "ceaselessly" in battle.
"Ceaselessly" hardly seems appropriate for a single battle on Earth... implying that he's been battling for quite a while since they last saw each other... meaning he was most likely already beyond the 18,000 they last saw him at by the time he reached Earth. Personally, based on performance, I'd put him closer to 19,500. |
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| freezamite | Feb 11 2017, 01:54 AM Post #18 |
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Well, that's a good point. He easily surpassed the KKx2 (even if 18 to 16k would allow that as well) but 19,5k would explain how he endured Goku's first KKx3 so well. I like it. |
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| ahill1 | Feb 11 2017, 03:10 AM Post #19 |
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But what Vegeta and Nappa did on Earth was probably different than what 2nd form Freeza did: Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P14.2-5 Context: More of Kui mistakenly thinking Vegeta’s power has declined. Kui: “Looks like you’ve gotten worse. With that battle power, you have no chance of winning.” Vegeta: “Did you call us rivals? Kukkukkuku…Well then, I’ll show you something…An interesting thing that I learned from the locals when I went to Earth…[ ] How to control my battle power!” Vegeta specifically noted he learnt how to control his battle power on Earth, meaning he couldn't do it before. This is pretty much the same wording he uses to describe Freeza powering up in his 2nd form: Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3 Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!” Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!” Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…” Equal to Vegeta, Freeza could control his power level, and whatever Vegeta did on Earth... wasn't called controlling one's battle power. Vegeta post Earth and 2nd form Freeza powering up =/= Vegeta and Nappa on Earth powering up Maybe the "powering up" isn't where the difference lies, but the point should be clear enough I guess. But good point about Vegeta not being 18,000 on Earth, I hadn't considered this. Vegeta's reply to Cui's "we should be at the same level" was "I've continuously been battling": ![]() which further reinforces your point, considering Zarbon or Dodoria stated Vegeta and Cui were around the same level. |
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| ahill1 | Feb 11 2017, 05:01 AM Post #20 |
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Oh, Vertical. You actually mentioned the Vegeta's line against Cui. Missed it. |
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| Sam | Feb 11 2017, 05:14 AM Post #21 |
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It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Yes. I also quite like Vegeta at 19,500 on Earth. Though, power levels are kinda bulls*** this is an interesting debate you're having
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| + Kyouks | Feb 11 2017, 10:43 AM Post #22 |
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The intent behind the two scenes are more different than you seem to realize, I think. Against Nail, Freeza specifies his full power in order to show Nail just how outclassed he is--Toriyama does this because he won't have Freeza use all of his power against Nail, and I guess he decided revealing the 530k number would be more impactful here than against Vegeta later. On the other hand, during his battle against Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin, the fact that Freeza has more power stowed away is meant to come as a surprise that is revealed to both the characters and the readers later on. He speaks in present-tense that his power if put into numbers would be over a million, and the simplest interpretation (especially at that very moment--this is important) is that whatever he's putting out right then and there is over a million. Two chapters later, Freeza increases his chi much to Krillin and Vegeta's shock (and, presumably, the readers' as well). Vegeta seemed to hope that Freeza was bluffing when he made his bold claim, but is soon convinced that Freeza's might is as incredible as he claims. Freeza then increases his power even further, a possibility that Vegeta hadn't even considered. Against Nail, it was revealed how outclassed he was immediately for one big impactful (figurative) blow. Against Vegeta and co., it was revealed that they were immensely outclassed--then, later, even more so. This loses all impact if Freeza was actually under a million up until then (or, rather, up until he took Piccolo seriously?). Why would Toriyama have Freeza shock everyone with a number in one chapter and have him put on a show to back it up, then shock the characters and readers by having him power up even further two weeks (in real time) later, if Freeza was only powering up to what he claimed his power was before? I'm not saying I don't see where the thought comes from, I'm just saying I find it incredibly unlikely and quite an unnecessary stretch just to put a cap on power levels (presumably). It's actually not that strange that he would brag about his suppressed power--apart from clearly speaking in present-tense, is it not more impactful if he put out such impressive chi without even trying his best? Again, this is not similar to the Nail scene. Toriyama chose not to include any surprises with that one. Wasn't Vegeta's mind blown? Also, is 19.5k over 18k considered significant? How significant? I don't really remember anymore. Edited by Kyouks, Feb 11 2017, 10:52 AM.
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| freezamite | Feb 11 2017, 12:24 PM Post #23 |
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But the first thing Freezer does, after saying he has over a million of power, is to say that he is controlling his Ki twice. Besides, from a character POW, it wouldn't make sense to brag about an inferior power he never had any intention to display (it's not like Freezer acted as he was using all his strength, and then bum, surprise) because he only increased his power after someone stronger appeared.
Because the reader doesn't know what "a million" units is. The first power up was pretty telegraphed as Freezer had already said that he was controlling his power, the second one may come as a surprise because nor the readers nor the z-warriors can't know if he was already using that million+ of strength or not. It's not like we had a character with 1m+ units there being beaten by Freezer and then he powered up to further surprise of we all, we had very powerful characters (Gohan and Piccolo Nail with the weigthed clothes) overpowering Freezer and being overpowered with it. The reader is not given any information on Gohan's strength nor Piccolo's strength with his weigthed clothes so the effect of Freezer still powering up is still there. It's just that from the point of view of the character bragging about a suppressed power when he had no intention of showing his real strength goes against the purpose of what he was intending to do. And it's Freezer, every time he is speaking of a suppressed power he tells us (like when he was fighting Goku and made sure everyone knew he was at 50% or 70%). Regarding the jump between 18k and 19.5k, in a fight it would mean a good advantage (although maybe not a one hit kill advantage) similar to the one Vegeta showed against Dodoria. Edited by freezamite, Feb 11 2017, 12:26 PM.
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| + Kyouks | Feb 11 2017, 01:17 PM Post #24 |
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Controlling chi as Freeza says in this context is different from suppression, else no one would've been surprised that he could "control" his chi (it's hard to deny that it was a surprise--the lines are right there). For instance, he says he has trouble controlling his power after stabbing Krillin. This is villain intimidation tactics 101: "Oh, I'm so strong and you're so weak that I didn't even realize I'd mess you up this badly." It's not foreshadowing that he's hiding more power. He could've been at full power and the statement would've still made sense. The reader understands the gravity of "a million" as much as they do "530,000." It's a really huge number, one much larger than anything they've seen before. It's also not only for the reader, but also for the characters, particularly Vegeta who understands power levels well. Vegeta can't believe Freeza's really at a million...until he sees Freeza fight a bit pre-power-up. Then Freeza powering up more is an "omg" moment for him on top of that (the fact that Freeza can even do it is apparently insane). These events flow nicely if Freeza is initially 1m+. I should rephrase: not all impact is lost. But a lot of it is. It's not just the impact of Freeza's sheer power alone, but the fact that he could power up even further period. Why go out of your way to go from "whoa that's how strong he is?!" to "wait, he can get even stronger?!" when in the second instance, he's just approaching the level of strength established already in the first? It's true that with either interpretation the reader still hasn't witnessed Freeza's reserves, but with how Toriyama wrote the scenes, the second is neutered like this. I already talked about Freeza talking about his power against Nail. Against Goku, we already know that he has the ability to suppress by now, so Toriyama chose to deliver his impact by having Freeza outclass Goku at a known suppressed level. Freeza not explicitly mentioning his suppression against Vegeta doesn't mean much; people don't act as predictably as robots do, and it's a perfectly fine alternative to driving home a similar point that suits the scenario (more or less........). I could easily use a similar argument and say that Freeza specified to Nail that 530k wasn't what he'd use against him, while he did no such thing against Vegeta, therefore he must've been referring to his current power and not his maximum. In any case, it doesn't really matter that he didn't mention it--there are other ways to convey information, and for all we know he could've mentioned it to gloat after killing Krillin if Gohan didn't catch him off guard and force it out of him anyway. About 19.5k/18k, cool. I don't like the idea of Vegeta being a whole lot stronger than 18k on Earth, but I guess it doesn't matter that match. |
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| freezamite | Feb 11 2017, 02:34 PM Post #25 |
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But they already knew that Freezer could suppress his chi, as it was made apparent in his weakest form. They were surprised that Freezer wasn't fighting at maximum strength in his second form and that he still had some energy in reservation, but that of course doesn't invalidate Freezer's power being still below a million, since the difference between them (unraged Gohan was at 30k units at best, Krilin was a bit above 10k and Vegeta, the strongest one, probably still under 400k) and let's say, 750k Freezer was still huge. From they perspective of Ki sensing, that was already a huge Ki that become even bigger, hence the surprise.
Vegeta just learned to feel Kis in Namek, and in front of such huge numbers (500K+) he had absolutely no experience. Vegeta never doubted Freezer's words about it having more than 1 million units, so it's not like he changed his mind or anything. He just was impressed at Freezer's performance, which is normal even at 600K levels of power (Vegeta was well below 500k) and at the fact that despite having such a huge power Freezer could still control and increase it even more. What matters here is Freezer's perspective as a character. He clearly didn't had any intention of powering up, and he loved bragging about how powerful he was, why would he give a much smaller number if he wanted just to demonstrate how strong he was? Against Nail he gave his maximum power and then proceeded to fight with a lot of it suppressed, and it's only logical than his way of proceeding would be the same in his superior forms. Regarding Vegeta's strength at earth, 19.5k fits the bill better than 18k when it comes to feats, and analysing the dialogue and knowing that Vegeta was conquering a planet when he decided to go to earth (which means that he had already been fighting) it really makes a lot of sense. Edited by freezamite, Feb 11 2017, 02:35 PM.
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| Vertical | Feb 11 2017, 04:47 PM Post #26 |
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Yea, I had forgotten about: ...which solidifies that Freeza's scouter reading should change accordingly. Even though I tried to participate objectively, I'll admit that coming into this topic I was of the opinion that Initial 2nd Form Freeza was "over 1 million". I'm glad to have that reaffirmed though... as I have a much easier time keeping track of what my opinions are... as opposed to why they are. I don't know how significant it is to this topic anymore but 19.5k allows for a little more breathing room for Vegeta's "power up" vs Goku. It also gives "KKx2 Goku vs Vegeta" and "Vegeta vs KKx3 Goku" roughly the same advantage (19,596 being the exact number required for an equal gap either side)... so with attitudes and displayed advantages taken into account, personally, I prefer to see Vegeta at 19,500 - 19,600 on Earth. |
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| + Kyouks | Feb 11 2017, 10:40 PM Post #27 |
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Whatever Freeza did in his first form wasn't the same thing. I'm not really sure why Toriyama chose to portray power-ups and such the way he did, but it's clear from Vegeta's statement that the surprise doesn't entirely come from the fact that there's more power Freeza can dish out, but from the fact that Freeza has the ability to control his chi in such a manner to begin with. Whatever Freeza did in his first form is the same as whatever Vegeta did when he powered up on Earth. Why is enraged Gohan 30k at best? Krillin at 10k? Vegeta stated that their powers had been growing to the extent that they could help out against even Freeza, no? Never mind the part about help, with those figures it seems that their powers hadn't increased at all. I'm not concerned with the technicalities about whether or not Vegeta can translate what he feels into numbers. Considering that Vegeta is more observant regarding chi than the more experienced Krillin and Gohan, I'd say that his inexperience doesn't play a huge role. In any case, my point is that the intent behind the scenes is lost if Freeza wasn't already over a million. Again, why would Toriyama make a big deal out of Freeza being able to power up if it was already known to the reader that he wasn't using his full power? It doesn't matter if Freeza can replicate his feats at 600k; Toriyama chose to use 1 million. In-universe, we don't know if he would've bragged or not. Like I said before, he could've bragged after attacking Krillin, like "You all seem afraid. I'll have you know that I'm not even serious right now." He doesn't always immediately state that he's suppressed--against Vegeta later on, he doesn't talk about how he got "just a little serious" (the first clue that tells us he's been suppressed) until after clowning everyone there once. Out-of-universe, Toriyama simply chose to convey the information in a different way and that's totally fine. Rather than have Freeza brag, he has Gohan cut him off with what seems to be an effective attack, but surprise surprise, it actually wasn't all that effective and Freeza's got even more in the tank--oh no! This is a standard way to build tension and is more effective if Freeza doesn't state that he was suppressed beforehand. If he's a robot that acts the exact same way all the time, then sure. Again, I could easily make a similar argument--against Nail he said "I'm actually 530k but I won't use all of that right now," so he didn't use 530k. Against Vegeta, "I'm actually 1 million+," and nothing else, so he used the 1 million+.
Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to ask. I think that's fair. Haha, I can understand that, especially since I tend to not talk about these sorts of things anymore but I still remember most of my stances on them. |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Feb 11 2017, 11:07 PM Post #28 |
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魔王子
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Hmm, I suppose you make the argument that he's referring to his full power since he doesn't necessarily imply the 1 million figure applies in this situation, but yeah, taken at face value, I'd assume he's referring to his current output. |
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| + Pyrus | Feb 11 2017, 11:24 PM Post #29 |
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The "perhaps I've overdone it" is the kicker for me. That phrase has no meaning in the passage if he's speaking about what his full power could be, rather than what it is now.
Edited by Pyrus, Feb 11 2017, 11:26 PM.
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| + Son-Goku | Feb 12 2017, 12:08 AM Post #30 |
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孫悟空
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Frieza makes it sound as if his current level was over one million. So yes, initially he is over one million and then increases his power even more in that form. |
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