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- Unorthodox manga only based power levels (end of Namek & Cell saga)
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| Unorthodox manga only based power levels (end of Namek & Cell saga) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 12:39 AM (2,466 Views) | |
| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 15 2017, 01:17 AM Post #31 |
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i see your point, but when did Vegeta started to get serious, exactly? also, when Vegeta stated that he surpassed Goku she (18) said that both aren't going to be a problem (so she considers Goku and Vegeta's powers pathetic). then 18 effortlessly stops all of his attacks. i mean, SSJ Vegeta is just losing some energy (stamina drain) that makes him get more tired, but does it really mean he is getting weaker and weaker to the point someone slightly behind him in power kicks his butt and tanks his best ki attack? other thing is that Trunks (who is stated to be not far away from Vegeta) got his sword broken easily even though 18 did nothing. 18 could have been toying the whole battle against Vegeta. Edited by OmegaSaiyan2, Feb 15 2017, 01:22 AM.
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| freezamite | Feb 15 2017, 01:44 AM Post #32 |
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After the other z-warriors arrive I'd say. The fight goes like this: Both Vegeta and A18 start to fight not seriously. Then, A18 asks Vegeta if he was going all out, and Vegeta answers that he wasn't. A18 admits that she wasn't serious either and Vegeta tells her to do so, which she agrees to do. At that point, A18 is serious but Vegeta still isn't (that's the scene where Vegeta punches at 18's stomach with no effect, and then he is kneed in the stomach and stomped into the mountain). After that, the z-warriors arrive and it's at that point that Vegeta starts to fight with all his strength.
I don't take this as their powers being pathetic, but as them not being a problem for the androids, which was true. If Goku was weaker than Vegeta, that would mean that none of them had any chance at winning. Having unlimited energy is a great advantage that has to be taken into account. You also have to consider how A18 was characterised. A17, for example, praises Vegeta's strength and even goes as far as to say that if the other z-warriors interfere she won't be able to win (which means that she wasn't that superior compared to Vegeta): A17 praising Vegeta A17 stating that A18 wouldn't be able to handle all the z-warriors herself
That wasn't Vegeta's best Ki attack (at that point Vegeta was still at A18 levels of power). I mean, that's what happens when someone tanks Vegeta's best Ki attack: Vegeta crying after Freezer kicks Vegeta's ki blast Or even when someone effortlessly tanks Vegeta's best non-ki attack: Vegeta's reaction after Cell took his kick like nothing Vegeta's reaction against A18 tanking his Ki blast was of a certain surprise, but not comparable to those. Vegeta still confident after A18 tanks his ki blast As I say in the link, he was still confident about his victory at that point, which means that A18 tanking his Ki blast isn't something that put her above Vegeta as he clearly is not a man that smiles when is clearly overpowered. In fact, after that ki blast it's when we have the scene that explains the reason Vegeta is going to lose: why Vegeta lost against A18 He only got trashed after he had lost too much power to continue to fight at A18's level. |
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| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 15 2017, 02:03 AM Post #33 |
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the thing is, that Vegeta still looked somewhat worried and angry after 18 beating on him. also, what makes you think Vegeta was toying until the rest of the Z Fighters arrived? i thought he stopped holding back after 18 dodged the big bang attack and the conversation between both.
Edited by OmegaSaiyan2, Feb 15 2017, 02:07 AM.
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| freezamite | Feb 15 2017, 09:33 AM Post #34 |
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Of course, he was beaten by a (female) android just when he thought he was the strongest being of the universe, he had reasons to be annoyed and angry. And regarding Vegeta not getting serious until later, it's made obvious by how the fight develops and how Vegeta reacts. I mean, we see Vegeta connecting some hits on A18 and this time it wasn't like when he punches her and she doesn't even feel it. Furthermore, if Vegeta was terrorised by Cell after he took his kick to the neck like it was nothing, why wouldn't he be terrorised by A18 if his punch to the stomach had all his power behind and still no effect on the android? Vegeta being confident after being overpowered the first time and managing to fight with A18 at her same level (every single z-warrior agrees on that) demonstrates that he was still holding back after A18 dodged his attack. The one that got serious there was the android, not Vegeta. Edited by freezamite, Feb 15 2017, 09:59 AM.
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| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 15 2017, 06:32 PM Post #35 |
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-what about SSJ Trunks, who wasn't really weak compared to Vegeta, still got his sword broken easily and effortlessly dominated by 17 and 18? i think this could imply 18 just lied to Vegeta just to not injure his pride. imo. -also Piccolo was fighting Imp Cell and Vegeta was really surprised of them, also 16 says Weighted Kamiccolo rivals 17 and 18. that means 17 > 18 >/= Kamiccolo Weighted >> Imp Cell > SSJ Vegeta |
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| freezamite | Feb 18 2017, 01:07 PM Post #36 |
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SSJ was clearly weaker than Vegeta (he was at SSJ Namek Goku levels of powers), which even if it wasn't a huge difference in numbers, in terms of DB difference in power levels it was big enough for him to not be able to do nothing against the androids. Regarding Vegeta being impressed, it's only logical, the SSJ was supposedly the strongest being in the universe (according to the legend at least). The fact that multiple powers as big as a SSJ (Ginger Town Cell probably was at the same level of SSJ Trunks) would suddenly appear (not counting the androids, of course) it's nothing short of surprising. But him being surprised is not the same as him being weaker, he was also very surprised when they read Goku's 5000 power level (he even urged Nappa to kill the rest of the z-warriors before Goku arrived) and he was clearly much stronger then. |
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| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 18 2017, 11:41 PM Post #37 |
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1- Vegeta's surprise is because he didn't expect Goku to make such gains. renember Goku almost 1 year before fighting Vegeta wasn't even 1/10 of Nappa. here in the Android Saga he was more worried and surprised. he even said that the strength he sensed (most probably Kamiccolo) was stronger than his, and 16 stated that Kamiccolo rivals 18 strength. i think that states: 18 >/= Kamiccolo (Weighted) > SSJ Vegeta =< Cell >= SSJ Goku. Edited by OmegaSaiyan2, Feb 18 2017, 11:42 PM.
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| freezamite | Feb 20 2017, 07:58 PM Post #38 |
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Well, Vegeta was the one that told Nappa to kill every single z-warrior before Goku could arrive because otherwise they could become a problem, so going by that reaction alone, one could say he was pretty scared as well. And regarding 16's statement, he said Piccolo rivalled both androids in strength. Considering that 17 was stronger than 18, something like: 17 > Piccolo Ginger Town > 18 = Vegeta would both explain 16's statement and the fact that Piccolo was already stronger than SSJ Vegeta. For Vegeta turning into a SSJ meant being the strongest in the universe, so it's only logical that he would get incredibly surprised when suddenly a lot of folks could be that strong or even stronger than him. Edited by freezamite, Feb 20 2017, 07:59 PM.
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| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 21 2017, 06:43 PM Post #39 |
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wouldn't 16 just say Piccolo rivals 17 if he surpassed 18? but he said that he rivals both, that means Weighted Piccolo is close to both Androids' strength, no way 18 would be weaker than him. |
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| freezamite | Feb 27 2017, 05:25 PM Post #40 |
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If he said both, and we know for a fact that 17 was above 18, then he could perfectly be above 18 in terms of power and closer to 17. If Piccolo just matched 18 at Ginger Town, it wouldn't have much sense to say "both" when we know that 17 > 18. Both probably means 17 (very small difference) > Piccolo (very small difference) > 18. |
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| OmegaSaiyan2 | Feb 27 2017, 05:35 PM Post #41 |
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the thing is that Piccolo (W/O Weights) is equal to 17 so i see hard 18 being weaker than this one with Weights. but that depends on your gap between 17 and 18. i think. Edited by OmegaSaiyan2, Feb 27 2017, 05:35 PM.
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| freezamite | Mar 1 2017, 07:52 PM Post #42 |
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There are a lot of factors left for speculation. For example, we don't know if 16's radar knew Piccolo used weights, so if the radar just measured his ki in the same way the z-fighters sensed it it's possible for Piccolo to have a power that's apparently between 17 and 18 even when being weaker in a fight due to his training clothes. In terms of Ki emitted Piccolo could've been at between 17 and 18 and above SSJ Vegeta, but in terms of fighting capabilities he could've been a bit below 18/SSJ Vegeta while still above Cell. Since the manga doesn't give us the concrete details and leaves the door open for speculation, there can perfectly be multiple valid interpretations of a given scene (as long as those interpretations don't contradict what's said in the manga, of course!). |
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| SuperDragoon978 | Jul 2 2017, 05:06 AM Post #43 |
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Many of the pl's are objectively wrong and in your arguments you've twisted WoG in your favor. Even if this is purposefully unorthodox it's still wrong on many levels. |
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