Zenku

Feb 11 2017, 01:34 PM

How to you Explain Vegetas Performance against First Form Frieza if his Powerlevel was under 300 K. Tell me please. This is absolute Garbage. Why would Freeza transform if he was so much stronger at a Pl of 530,000?

freezamite

Feb 11 2017, 02:17 PM

Zenku

Feb 11 2017, 01:34 PM

How to you Explain Vegetas Performance against First Form Frieza if his Powerlevel was under 300 K. Tell me please. This is absolute Garbage. Why would Freeza transform if he was so much stronger at a Pl of 530,000?

Who has said that Vegeta's power level was under 300k? I don't see that anywhere. As I see it, Vegeta was between 300k and 400k against Freezer weakest form (Freezer wasn't using all his strength there, as it's proven by how fresh he was after clashing with Vegeta), but it's obvious that Vegeta got well past the million units after Dende healed him.
Oh, and Freezer didn't transform because he needed it, he transformed because Vegeta told him to do so. It's not like when Piccolo was going to beat Freezer and Freezer decided to transform to not let that happen, in Vegeta's case Freezer had no intention of transforming until Vegeta told him he knew his "secret", so having him below 500k is perfectly valid because like when he went from his 2nd form to his original form, it wasn't for necessity, it was just to show how terrible he was.
It was Goku the one that had a limit between 300k and 400k so please, before saying something is garbage, at least make sure you understand what you're criticising!

Edited the original list with my take on Vegeta's and Picoclo's power.

"Zenku"

 

This list is Garbage. Vegeta got a Zenkai after Kuririn blasted him and could see Final Friezas movements. How is this possible with a Pl of 400K. Piccolo couldnt and was on par with 2nd form Frieza. Take that you stubborn troll.

"Tinny"

 

Zenku calm down, you're both double posting and being really aggressive towards Freezamite who's worst action here was... Having as he even states an unorthodox pl list. I won't pretend to understand why anyone would think Goku's ssj is weaker than kaioken times ten of all things, but he hasn't done anything (certainly not on here) to warrant this level of aggression.

freezamite

Feb 10 2017, 09:33 PM

Zenku

Feb 10 2017, 07:57 PM

You are making things up. Kaioken isnt the Reason for Gokus heart Virus. It was never stated that he used Kaioken against King Cold or Mecha Frieza. Goku mastered Super Saiyan as he have no Energy drain anymore but he didnt have a higher Multiplier. His Base form got higher. The Grade forms does have a higher Multiplier but have less speed. Thats why Goku sticked to Super Saiyan and mastered it. Goku have a pl of 350.000 in the Cell Saga. So only 3x stronger than Ginyu. Goku is weak. What a Joke. Vegeta have a Pl of 325,000 ( according to you) and fought nearly equally with 1st form Freeza? Who have a Lvl of 530,000. Then Vegeta got a Zenkai again and was stronger than 3rd form Freeza and thought he could beat Final Form Freeza. You see? It doesnt work

The base state of a saiyan has a limit that can't be surpassed no matter how much he trains, and that limit has to be reached in order to turn into a SSJ.
Then, that limit varies from saiyan to saiyan (that's why there are low class saiyan or high class saiyan). For Goku, that limit was between 325k and 400k, for Vegeta it was much higher, more than one and a half millions.

The whole explanation of the SSJ form is "a saiyan that can surpass a wall any saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can't ever surpass", and that limit was confirmed against twice:
When Vegeta explained how he achieved the SSJ form.
When old KaioShin explained why his powers were so amazing.

And of course, there are feats that also demonstrate this. Goku, for example, in his base state couldn't lift 40 tons of weight in the Bu saga. At 100G Goku's body wieghts 6,2 tons, and Goku mastered the 100G gravity with less than 90k units of power.
He had a Zenkay power after that that put him at around 300k units, but considering the 40 tons feat, it's obvious that he didn't get much stronger in his base state.
Furthermore, why do you think all the saiyans stopped to get zenkay powers as soon as they became SSJ? Things like the Zenkay (or even the Oozaru boost) stop working once that limit is reached (that's why it's a limit).

So no, Goku didn't increase his strength in base, he increased the SSJ efficiency by accustoming the body to the SSJ form and diminishing (not completely erasing) it's main drawback: the stress it generated to the body that prevented them to use their full potential (and more refined techniques like the Kaioh Ken, that would've meant insta-dead to a SSJ).
It's the same it happened with Nappa with the difference that Nappa simply needed to calm down to release that stress and use his full potential, while the SSJ transformation has that stress as a part of it.
Besides, I don't know why you think that the untrained SSJ had energy drain problems, but it's never stated that untrained SSJ have energy drains (maybe you're getting confused by Freezer in Namek and when Goku explains him the problem he has, but that was Freezer with the energy drains and not SSJ Goku!).

Regarding Goku's disease, as I've said, it was implied it was related to the KK. Firstly, in the future timeline Goku's body weakens much faster than in the present timeline.
We also know that transformations/techniques that force the body, increase the speed of the illness (we saw that when Goku fought A19).
We know that as an untrained SSJ Goku didn't have enough power to fight against Cold (Kami-Piccolo had between 3 and 4 million units while being considerably stronger than SSJ Goku, and for how Freezer spoke about Cold, it's very possible that his father surpassed that number as well in his original form. Trunks didn't give him the opportunity to transform, but its obvious that Goku wouldn't have killed Cold the way Trunks did).
So, what could allow Goku to defeat someone with more power than an untrained SSJ, and at the same time weaken his body much more than the SSJ? The only thing that fits the bill is the KK.
Remember that in the present timeline Goku trained with Piccolo for 3 years, and during those 3 years he trained as a SSJ (that's why Piccolo got so strong and knew how strong a SSJ should be when Goku wasn't feeling right against the androids), so in the future timeline, Goku had to do a more aggressive (for his body) technique than simply turning into SSJ.

"zombie2599"

 

stop getting zenkais once you turn ssj?, where is that implied or stated

"zombie2599"

 

future gohan got a huge zenkai after losing his arm, as despite missing his.left arm he was absolutly confident he could beat the androids until 17 made that using less than half his power comment

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They were in the same ballpark. I have SSJ Goku a bit below his KKx10 because then it is easier to powerscale through the Cell saga. As I've said, Piccolo has between 3 and 4 million (probably 3.5 million units) after fusing with God, and he was considerably stronger than SSJ Vegeta who was also considerably stronger (in DB terms) than SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku in Namek.

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The very definition of a SSJ is "a saiyan that can overcome a wall no other saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can ever surpass", so that already implies no zenkays once a saiyan reaches that wall/limit.

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On the other hand, we have Vegeta's explanation on how he reached the SSJ state: he trained again and again with no results (that also meant injuring himself, as we saw Goku doing that) until he become frustrated enough to have a rage boost.

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Finally, is there a single instance of a saiyan having a Zenkay after him having become a SSJ? The only one that has it is Cell, but that's because he wasn't a regular saiyan at all so his limit of strength wasn't that of a regular saiyan.

"Tinny"

 

I can get trying to make it easier, but narrative wise nothing really implies Freeza became significantly less powerful after getting hit with that spirit, bomb, as well as everything around super saiyan, from it being built up since arguably since the saiyan arc, it's significantly different look as a more almost ethereal form without the massive strain on Goku, Freeza stating he was at 100%, the lack of kaioken later on except in conjunction with super saiyan and later blue (no one really bothered to try mixing kaioken and super saiyan in the Z manga either, they just tried to improve super saiyan), most everything suggests that super saiyan is better than kaioken x10 and kaioken x20.

Honestly I'd say it's more likely super saiyan was just retconned into times ten in the cell arc than it being less than times ten in the freeza arc.

"Tinny"

 

Except that's clearly false given we have super saiyan 2, 3, 4, god, blue, rose, and ikari, all of which are more powerful than super saiyan without any real significant drawbacks with the possible exception of 3.

"Tinny"

 

not to mention that even contradicts the idea that kaioken x10 and x20 being stronger if super saiyan is overcoming the wall that no saiyan no matter how gifted can surpass, if you're going with this, then it also has to be stronger than Goku's kaioken, otherwise he's already surpassed that wall already.

"Tinny"

 

I have to ask how that's relevant to zenkais not being a thing after ssj.

"Tinny"

 

Why would Cell getting a zenkai be due to him not being a saiyan? Wouldn't him getting a saiyan specific zenkai be from his saiyan genetics?

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In fact I think it's the opposite. Narrative wise, it's implied that when a character is injured he loses strength, and the more severe are those injures the less strength he has left.
Freezer was pretty injured with the Genkidama, he was almost killed (in his words) so his power had to decrease. In fact, even Freezer states this at least twice (first just after he comes back from the Genkidama, when he says "even having taken all this damage I'm more than enough to kill you all", and a second time after having been fighting SSJ Goku when he says "if I'm caught in the planet explosion I'll lose even more strength").
His "100%" of power was a way of saying that he was using all the power he had at that moment, but that doesn't mean he wasn't affected by the injuries, it's just that even after being injured he still was fighting only at 50% of his (at that point already lowered) capacity.

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Regarding the lack of Kaioken, it's just that Goku never had the opportunity to use it. As a SSJ it was completely impossible to use it (the KK requires having a huge degree of control over one's Ki, and the SSJ forms didn't have that at all. They became better in the Cell saga when they trained them, but never at the point of being compared to the base state), and since the SSJ had more potential (better strength and less drawbacks) it's only logical that Goku preferred to evolve his SSJ.

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Well, regarding the original manga, SSJ 2 and SSJ 3 were just improved forms of SSJ, and when the legend said "the SSJ is a saiyan that can overcome a wall no other saiyan no matter how gifted can surpass" it clearly wasn't comparing the SSJ with superior levels of SSJ, but with what could be achieved without turning into a SSJ.
SSJ God would contradict that, but SSJ God has SSJ in his name, so it's technically part of the SSJ family as well.

What that sentence means is that the base state can't improve past a certain point, and that was confirmed in the manga (and never contradicted).

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The Kaioken is a technique, not a transformation, and is a technique invented by a god nontheless. In other words, when the SSJ became a legend it of course didn't took into account techniques like that.
In the same way, you could say that if Goku could make a universal Genkidama he could destroy a SSJ with it even without being a SSJ, but in both cases those are not Goku's power, those are really, really special and powerful techniques.

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It's relevant because if Vegeta had improved even for a bit through the zenkays, he would've never become a SSJ. For a regular saiyan, to become a SSJ you first have to reach the limit of the base state, and then surpass it with a rage boost (both conditions are needed).
It's not the fact of being a SSJ that makes the zenkay power banish, but the fact of reaching the base state limit which in turn is a condition to become a SSJ.
Vegeta became so frustrated because he reached a wall he couldn't surpass no matter what he tried, that's how he could enrage and turn into a SSJ.

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Yes, and no. The zenkay ability came from his saiyan genetics, but the fact that he could have a zenkay with the power he had at that point came from Freezer's genetics. In other words, Cell was the best of a saiyan combined with the best of a namekian and the best of Freezer's race (since Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Cold and Freezer represent the best of the best of their races) so the saiyan part in Cell combined with the huge natural strength of Freezer is what allowed him to have that Zenkay.
None of the other SSJ had a single zenkay, ever, despite them being saiyans because for a saiyan that ability stops when they reach their base state limit, but Cell wasn't a regular saiyan, he was part saiyan, part namekian, part freezer's race. That's why he had no such wall.

freezamite

 

Mecha Freezer wasn't suppressed. Gohan assumed Mecha was suppressed because his power was much lower than in Namek, and Gohan (nor any other z-warrior) couldn't possibly know Freezer's real power as Mecha (they probably assumed Freezer was transformed, like in Namek).
I mean, if Mecha Freezer was suppressed... why didn't he power up before attacking Trunks? Trunks told them to not hold back, and Mecha Freezer, as scared as he was of the SSJ, surely didn't hold back even a bit.

"Tinny"

 

When they're injured yes, like when Goku's leg is broken or Gohan's arm for example, however, Freeza never lost anything like that, unless we're saying the loss of his tail tip really crippled him. And why would you say 100% of power when you can just say you're going all out or something less confusing? You also haven't really addressed the rest of my post regarding the actual narrative and visual language (aesthetics and such) of the scene.

"Tinny"

 

Every time he goes super saiyan is a time he could have used some form of kaioken x10 instead, considering he outright has in plenty of fights, or using kaioken x20 instead. You haven't addressed the fact that they never even bothered to try using the supposedly superior kaioken over super saiyan, even in the later cell saga. with ssj Goku at 2,950,000 and freeza saga kkx20 Goku at 6,100,000.

"Tinny"

 

Except according to you Goku goes far beyond that power with kaioken times 20 and even kaioken times 10, so that's impossible as well.

"Tinny"

 

Name doesn't indicate nearly that much, 4 isn't even much of a super saiyan form, beyond it being a super form for saiyans, it is completely different in how it is acquired, the same goes for God.

"Tinny"

 

I wouldn't hold King Kai in high regarding considering he's far weaker than Nappa.

"Tinny"

 

And it is Goku's power, it's Goku using a technique and becoming more powerful under his own strength, especially considering everything going on, and once again you refused to answer me regarding the narrative structure.

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The translation goes as follows:
To be honest, the way I decided upon the Super Saiyan design was for such a… simple reason that it’d make you go “eh?”. I only use one assistant (note 3), who has always helped me. My assistant always had to spend a lot of time blacking in Goku’s hair (note 4), so the biggest reason was to save time, since if Goku became a Super Saiyan, his hair wouldn’t have to be blacked in. What’s more, this also had the effect that one could tell with a glance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it was killing two birds with one stone. At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that’s a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

"Tiny"

 

Nothing in the story applies to this however, especially considering later in Super they explicitly refer to such things as the zenkai when talking about how saiyans improve in battle. Once again, this idea seems to contradict the story.

"Tiny"

 

Why would Freeza and namekian genetics have anythin to do with zenkais?

"Tiny"

 

And really the biggest problem here still stands, the narrative doesn't build super saiyan up to be weaker than kaioken

"zombie2599"

 

how is that the base limit for the saiyans where they cant get stronger, yet the ssj form gets stronger, that makes no sense

"zombie2599"

 

regardless of what number you have for it, ssj is a certain multipyer for the base so if the base cant increase neither will the transform, you seem to treat them as two seperate entities with the transformation getting stronger while the base never changes . look at it as a balanced equation

5+5=10=5x2

the left represents the base power whild the right represents the multiplier

equally balanced with the middle number

yours seems to be

5+5=10=5x2

then 5+5=10=7x2

yours seems to have the transformation getting stronger but the base doesnt so the equation is unbalanced

"ahill1"

 

If Freeza stated that he was more powerful still, and Gohan states Freeza can get much stronger, the obvious conclusion is that Mecha Freeza (full power) > Freeza (namek) > Mecha Freeza (suppressed).

"ahill1"

 

Freeza was pretty worried and desperated when he saw there was other super saiyan besides Goku, so it stands a reason why he attacked without thinking twice, even if that weren't the safest reasoning (that being powering up before attacking).
We don't know if 100% Mecha Freeza has the same drawback he had on Namek. If it were the same as on Namek, then he couldn't access the form that easily, he had to take a while to power up, and it goes back to the point I have made.

"OmegaSaiyan2"

 

only thing is that why is gap between SSJ2 Gohan/Perfect Cell that small here? or Imp Cell post humans/Piccolo? other thing that i noted is why is 18 weaker than SSJ Vegeta?