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- Unorthodox manga only based power levels (end of Namek & Cell saga)
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| Unorthodox manga only based power levels (end of Namek & Cell saga) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2017, 12:39 AM (2,465 Views) | |
| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 12:39 AM Post #1 |
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Namek Piccolo + Nail: 1.150.000 Vegeta: When fighting 4th form Freezer: 350k When fighting original form Freezer: 1.500.000 Freezer: 3rd form: 1.000.000+ (last explicitly given number) 1st/original form: 25%: 3.200.000 50%: 6.400.000 50% after Genkidama: 2.300.000 100% (uninjured, not seen in the manga): 11.900.000 100% (the one we see in the manga, just after reaching it): 3.000.000 100% tired after fighting SSJ Goku for a few minutes: 2.750.000 Goku: Base: 305.000 KKx10: 3.050.000 KKx20 (uninjured, not seen in the manga): 6.100.000 KKx20 (after Freezer's beating, the one we see in the manga): 5.500.000 SSJ: 2.900.000 ---- Cell Saga ---- Cold 3rd form: 950.000 Mecha Freezer: 975.000 Trunks SSJ: 2.850.000-2.950.000 Goku SSJ: 2.950.000 Piccolo (pre-fusion): 2.700.000 Vegeta SSJ: 3.250.000 Android 19: 900.000 + whatever energy it can absorb Android 20: 2.400.000 Android 18: 3.225.000 Android 17: 3.400.000 Cell 1st form Ginger Town: 3.100.000 Piccolo (fused, max power): 3.450.000 Adroid 16: 3.850.000 Cell 1st Form + humans absorbed: 3.900.000 Cell 2nd form: 5.000.000 Super Vegeta: 5.400.000 Super Trunks: 5.300.000 Goku FPSSJ: 10.900.000 Gohan FPSSJ: 11.100.000 Perfect Cell: 12.800.000 Gohan SSJ2: 14.500.000 Super Perfect Cell: 14.500.000 Edited by freezamite, Feb 11 2017, 02:19 PM.
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| Vegerot1990 | Feb 10 2017, 10:01 AM Post #2 |
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Too low numbers. Super Perfect Cell only 3 millions stronger than 100% Frieza? Are you kidding? KKx20 Goku stronger than Super Saiyan?
Edited by Vegerot1990, Feb 10 2017, 10:11 AM.
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| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 01:43 PM Post #3 |
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Yes, SSJ Goku was approximately as strong as KKx10 Goku as stated by Toriyama himself in an interview. That being said, we know for sure that Kami-Piccolo's power is between 3 and 4 millions (which means that the untrained SSJ have to be lower), and regarding super perfect Cell, it's a matter of how powerful we make the SSJ2. Gohan was considerably stronger than Perfect Cell, but he wasn't one hit killing him either like we saw in other fights, and even if he wasn't doing that on purpose, he had to put some effort behind his attacks to counter Cell's best efforts (like the giant KameHame). |
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| Vegerot1990 | Feb 10 2017, 04:02 PM Post #4 |
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Then why doesnt Goku use Kaioken to one shot Super Perfect Cell if its stronger than Super Saiyan. Toriyama wanted Ssj at 10x but it doesnt make sense. This is a horrible list. Sorry. How high is Vegetto for you? 30 Million? Lol Edited by Vegerot1990, Feb 10 2017, 04:03 PM.
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| lazerbem | Feb 10 2017, 04:15 PM Post #5 |
 
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How do you figure Freezas 100% not actually being his 100%? |
 Crazy cat cults in the woods | |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 10 2017, 04:33 PM Post #6 |
 
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Well a 10x ssj multiplier can work. The issue with the power levels isn't the multiplier though it's the base power levels. Goku wasn't 300,000 against Frieza. He was 3,000,000 After goku fought Frieza the ssj multiplier doesn't necessarily have to be 50x base power. It could be 10x Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 10 2017, 04:34 PM.
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IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Vegerot1990 | Feb 10 2017, 04:58 PM Post #7 |
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Why doesnt Goku use Kaioken x20 then? If its superior to Super Saiyan. He could have defeated the Androids easily according to this list. |
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| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 07:07 PM Post #8 |
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Who said the Kaioken was stronger than the "Super Saiyan" as a whole? The Super Saiyan wasn't a fixed multiplier nor a fixed transformation, when Goku trained in the RoSAT for one year he mastered the SSJ transformation to erase it's main drawback (ki disturbance due to the stress it generated) so it's obvious that the SSJ multiplier increased. Cell games Goku had a much better transformation, with an increase that neared the 40x (that's why I have him at nearly 11 million of units). And regarding Vegetto... it's obvious he has to be much, much higher than 30 million, but I'm not covering the Bu's saga in this list.
Because Freezer's 100% had two drawbacks. The first one was directly stated by Goku, which was his lack of stamina. That, of course, didn't affect at his maximum strength. The second drawback was explored later in the Cell saga. Freezer had to force his body as a result of using all his power (from 80% onward his muscles became overcharged) and that means that at the same strength, less speed for him. Power levels take into account every single aspect, from speed, to strength, to endurance when giving the number, and Freezer's speed was a bit handicapped compared to what it should have been if his body wasn't so untrained.
I have Goku at 300,000 because he fought with the KKx10 activated since the beginning.
Goku may have been able to kill the androids with a KKx20 (but remember that the KK is implied to have been the reason behind Goku's heart disease) but he wasn't interested in doing that. He didn't kill Gero because he wanted to fight the androids, and when he awoke from his illness he already knew about Cell, and as a saiyan that only wants to fight against the strongest opponents, it's Cell who he wanted to fight and not the androids. Besides, the SSJ had much more potential than the KK (Goku's base state can't increase past the 300k-400k units of strength, that was his limit when he turned into a SSJ) so it only made sense for Goku to train the SSJ and forget about the KK. There's only one instance where it's implied that Goku used the KK as an emergency resource, and that's in his fight against Cold in the future timeline. Edited by freezamite, Feb 10 2017, 07:32 PM.
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| Vegerot1990 | Feb 10 2017, 07:57 PM Post #9 |
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You are making things up. Kaioken isnt the Reason for Gokus heart Virus. It was never stated that he used Kaioken against King Cold or Mecha Frieza. Goku mastered Super Saiyan as he have no Energy drain anymore but he didnt have a higher Multiplier. His Base form got higher. The Grade forms does have a higher Multiplier but have less speed. Thats why Goku sticked to Super Saiyan and mastered it. Goku have a pl of 350.000 in the Cell Saga. So only 3x stronger than Ginyu. Goku is weak. What a Joke. Vegeta have a Pl of 325,000 ( according to you) and fought nearly equally with 1st form Freeza? Who have a Lvl of 530,000. Then Vegeta got a Zenkai again and was stronger than 3rd form Freeza and thought he could beat Final Form Freeza. You see? It doesnt work Edited by Vegerot1990, Feb 10 2017, 08:34 PM.
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| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 09:33 PM Post #10 |
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The base state of a saiyan has a limit that can't be surpassed no matter how much he trains, and that limit has to be reached in order to turn into a SSJ. Then, that limit varies from saiyan to saiyan (that's why there are low class saiyan or high class saiyan). For Goku, that limit was between 325k and 400k, for Vegeta it was much higher, more than one and a half millions. The whole explanation of the SSJ form is "a saiyan that can surpass a wall any saiyan, no matter how gifted he is, can't ever surpass", and that limit was confirmed against twice: When Vegeta explained how he achieved the SSJ form. When old KaioShin explained why his powers were so amazing. And of course, there are feats that also demonstrate this. Goku, for example, in his base state couldn't lift 40 tons of weight in the Bu saga. At 100G Goku's body wieghts 6,2 tons, and Goku mastered the 100G gravity with less than 90k units of power. He had a Zenkay power after that that put him at around 300k units, but considering the 40 tons feat, it's obvious that he didn't get much stronger in his base state. Furthermore, why do you think all the saiyans stopped to get zenkay powers as soon as they became SSJ? Things like the Zenkay (or even the Oozaru boost) stop working once that limit is reached (that's why it's a limit). So no, Goku didn't increase his strength in base, he increased the SSJ efficiency by accustoming the body to the SSJ form and diminishing (not completely erasing) it's main drawback: the stress it generated to the body that prevented them to use their full potential (and more refined techniques like the Kaioh Ken, that would've meant insta-dead to a SSJ). It's the same it happened with Nappa with the difference that Nappa simply needed to calm down to release that stress and use his full potential, while the SSJ transformation has that stress as a part of it. Besides, I don't know why you think that the untrained SSJ had energy drain problems, but it's never stated that untrained SSJ have energy drains (maybe you're getting confused by Freezer in Namek and when Goku explains him the problem he has, but that was Freezer with the energy drains and not SSJ Goku!). Regarding Goku's disease, as I've said, it was implied it was related to the KK. Firstly, in the future timeline Goku's body weakens much faster than in the present timeline. We also know that transformations/techniques that force the body, increase the speed of the illness (we saw that when Goku fought A19). We know that as an untrained SSJ Goku didn't have enough power to fight against Cold (Kami-Piccolo had between 3 and 4 million units while being considerably stronger than SSJ Goku, and for how Freezer spoke about Cold, it's very possible that his father surpassed that number as well in his original form. Trunks didn't give him the opportunity to transform, but its obvious that Goku wouldn't have killed Cold the way Trunks did). So, what could allow Goku to defeat someone with more power than an untrained SSJ, and at the same time weaken his body much more than the SSJ? The only thing that fits the bill is the KK. Remember that in the present timeline Goku trained with Piccolo for 3 years, and during those 3 years he trained as a SSJ (that's why Piccolo got so strong and knew how strong a SSJ should be when Goku wasn't feeling right against the androids), so in the future timeline, Goku had to do a more aggressive (for his body) technique than simply turning into SSJ. Edited by freezamite, Feb 10 2017, 09:37 PM.
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| Slifer | Feb 10 2017, 09:39 PM Post #11 |
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What is this? First form Freeza = 530,000. He transformed three times, then powered up to 50%, then doubled that to 100%, then his mecha version is stronger than that, yet it's less than 2x his first form? |
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| freezamite | Feb 10 2017, 10:28 PM Post #12 |
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His Mecha form wasn't even close to his normal form, as it was proved by the facts and some statements made in that saga. Statements made in the Mecha Freezer arc: In one hand, we have: - Freezer stated that he was more powerful than before (twice). - Freezer stated that he was the strongest (he knew nothing of Trunks, so that's not counted). - Cold stated that Freezer was the strongest. On the other hand: - Gohan stated that Mecha Freezer's power was suppressed and much lower than his maximum power. - Gohan stated that SSJ Trunks had the same power SSJ Goku had in Namek. - Both Goku and Trunks agreed in that they had more or less the same power. - Goku claimed that he didn't have much time to train between healing and travelling to the earth, and that the only thing he could do was to learn the shunkanido and to transform into a SSJ at will. Then, we have the facts: - Freezer was scared of Trunks, but he didn't power up before attacking which means that his power wasn't suppressed. - SSJ Trunks trashed Mecha Freezer with a power comparable to that of SSJ Goku in Namek. - Mecha Freezer's reaction speed and speed was in the same ballpark as Cold while transformed in one of his weaker forms. So, there with all of that on mind, it's obvious that Mecha Freezer and Cold were wrong about Mecha's power. It may seem weird for a character to not know the extent of his power, but remember that Freezer didn't know that even on Namek, so it's only logic that he wouldn't have trained as Mecha Freezer either. Gohan is the key here, he sensed Mecha's power and when Yamcha asked if Freezer was really that powerful he said that he could get much, much stronger. Of course, Gohan doesn't know anything about Mecha, he simply compared Mecha's Ki to what Freezer showed in Namek, and assumed Freezer was hiding his ki like he did on Namek. Then, we have Cold. Judging by his performance, Cold should be dozens of times stronger than Mecha Freezer, because if his power scaled in the same way than his son's when he transformed, if in that form he could more or less match Mecha, in his original strongest form the difference would be abysmal. But both Cold and Mecha acted as if Freezer was the strongest of the two, further confirming that they weren't aware of how weak Mecha Freezer had become. Of course, SSJ Trunks trashing Mecha with a power comparable to SSJ Goku in Namek (who only managed to fight evenly with a badly injured Freezer) further demonstrates how weak Mecha was. Now, the only question that lefts unanswered is: why did Freezer think that he was stronger? Firstly, when he fought SSJ Goku he had been badly injured, so if he assumed his recovery had gone well, then that would already translate on him having more power. Secondly, if he was already at his maximum power and could maintain it without the drawbacks he had on Namek (increased muscle mass and high energy drain), that would translate into him being more powerful as well. The problem is that Freezer never tested his Mecha form against his father for example, and even if much weaker, there weren't any scoutters able to measure his strength, so his assumptions ended being very, very wrong. Edited by freezamite, Feb 10 2017, 10:31 PM.
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| ahill1 | Feb 11 2017, 03:40 AM Post #13 |
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Mecha Freeza was suppressed when Gohan made that statement, proven by the fact Trunks told hom to not hold back, Freeza stated that with his Mecha form he has now obtained greater powers than before, meaning he is already above his organic self 100%. No way around this. |
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| Sam | Feb 11 2017, 04:52 AM Post #14 |
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash.
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Freezamite has eccentric views about Freeza, guys. I argued against you on DBZeta, Freezamite  you might recall. You guys might want to make a discussion topic on this! 
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WoW Legion Ending - Thank you Darker for making this into one, big incredible gif! <3 | |
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| freezamite | Feb 11 2017, 12:39 PM Post #15 |
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Mecha Freezer wasn't suppressed. Gohan assumed Mecha was suppressed because his power was much lower than in Namek, and Gohan (nor any other z-warrior) couldn't possibly know Freezer's real power as Mecha (they probably assumed Freezer was transformed, like in Namek). I mean, if Mecha Freezer was suppressed... why didn't he power up before attacking Trunks? Trunks told them to not hold back, and Mecha Freezer, as scared as he was of the SSJ, surely didn't hold back even a bit. Freezer statements have to be taken into context. The only way he would've had to measure his power would've been through training, and he wasn't a character to train. He felt better because in Namek fought SSJ Goku after being badly injured, and if he was going at maximum strength from the beginning that means that he had solved his other drawback (he didn't need to force his body to use all his ki) which are things Freezer could easily check. But we know he didn't fight against Cold nor had any further training because otherwise there would be no way that Cold would have considered himself weaker than his son. Regarding his real strength, is performance against Trunks (who had the same power as SSJ Goku) coupled by the fact that his father transformed in his weaker forms can perform at his same level tell us everything about it. It was a bit better than his father transformed, and we know Freezer's strength at that form (1 million +) and that Cold was weaker. Regarding Cold, he held back but it was logical from his perspective to do what he did. He considered himself weaker than Freezer (and he was until Freezer became Mecha Freezer) so after seeing how Trunks trashed his son he abandoned any hope of winning that fight through brute strength. We have some solid numbers in Kami-Piccolo though, he was between 3 and 4 million of units. Going from that, we can scale back to the regular SSJ to know how powerful they were as well.
Which nick did you use? Hahahaha I'm sure it had to be an entertaining discussion with dozens of arguments and counter-arguments for both parts XD Edited by freezamite, Feb 11 2017, 12:42 PM.
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