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The gap between Nappa and Goku
Topic Started: Feb 9 2017, 05:21 PM (2,663 Views)
+ Kaboom
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Vertical
Feb 9 2017, 10:41 PM
A fair enough point... but then it raises the issue of Vegeta vs everyone on Namek. He was clearly not as numerically disadvantaged as Nappa when facing the likes of Zarbon (for the first time) or Recoome.

And returns to my initial point of Goku vs Freeza. Their fight was lengthy and although Goku had a clear disadvantage, Freeza's gifted handicaps and easy-going's let Goku "stay in it". His power should've increased as a result, right? Which would result in the inaccuracy of the official numbers applied to that battle. Snarky remark (feel free to ignore): ...which is where almost all decent thought regarding power levels ends up.
Well like I said, it presumably doesn't help much if you're just straight-up getting your butt kicked. It's not enough just put up a futile resistance... it would have to actually be "a fight," know what I mean? One where you're able to keep going without losing power or taking injury. It's more something that will help give you an extra edge when you're at a disadvantage, not some miraculous loophole that's going to let you magically recover power you've already lost and suddenly not be doomed anymore.

It would work well for Nappa because he's built like a flippin' tank and was able to shrug off Goku's attacks despite the power disadvantage. But while Vegeta and Goku are tenacious, they're not a living brick wall like Nappa is. So in the instances on Namek you mentioned, there was no opportunity for this Saiyan trait to work for them before they just got pummeled and lost power.

We're starting to get into hypothetical territory here now, but I hope the basic concept is as straightforward as it seems to me.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

How does the Saiyan trait work, though? How fast does it operate? Nappa went from being 4,000 to taking Goku all day to beat him if he fought normally, so did he almost double his power in a few minutes?

Also, why wouldn't Nappa notice his power rising so quickly?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

To me the whole "Saiyans get stronger as they fight" for one, maybe should be taken with a grain of a salt.This was a statement I believe given during the time of Battle of Gods and we know how...questionable things got then when comparing new stuff to the manga. But let's say we do take it seriously and Saiyans get stronger as they fight.

Considering this is never brought up before, I think the idea should be treated that Saiyans get stronger...after they fight. That once they have a hard battle then relax and get well rested, their current level will have risen just a bit higher. It's not something that's going to rise up significantly in one battle though. Someone like Goku after a good fight might go from 100 to 150 or something.

One simply doesn't just get into a quick brawl...which is what Goku vs Nappa was at the start, just a quick brawl and the pop up 2x stronger and start giving your opponent a challenge. If Nappa was going to get stronger, it would've happened afterwards and it probably would've been a very short amount.
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+ Clearin
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The whole "Saiyans get stronger every time they fight" thing has actually been in the manga since the early Freeza saga

Context: Vegeta bragging to Dodoria about how he became stronger.
Vegeta: “Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!”
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

True enough but Vegeta's line also points out that a lot of stuff went into that including almost dying which would be the Zenkais we see. However look at what Vegeta had to go through to go from 18,000 to 24,000.

He had an extremely rough battle with Goku that pretty much pushed his body to the limit, even getting blasted by a Kamehameha. He's then struck by a Genki-Dama later on and then gets pounded on by Oozaru Gohan. By the time Vegeta gets back into his pod, he's barely able to move and he's got to get into a healing tank soon after. For Vegeta, he had to go through hell and back before powering up and most of it from what he seems to imply comes from nearly dying.

I'd argue that's what Vegeta means ultimately by "fighting strong opponents." The idea that the stronger the opponent, the more likely it is that a Saiyan will die and thus get these boosts.
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freezamite
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EMIYA
Feb 10 2017, 12:37 AM
True enough but Vegeta's line also points out that a lot of stuff went into that including almost dying which would be the Zenkais we see. However look at what Vegeta had to go through to go from 18,000 to 24,000.

He had an extremely rough battle with Goku that pretty much pushed his body to the limit, even getting blasted by a Kamehameha. He's then struck by a Genki-Dama later on and then gets pounded on by Oozaru Gohan. By the time Vegeta gets back into his pod, he's barely able to move and he's got to get into a healing tank soon after. For Vegeta, he had to go through hell and back before powering up and most of it from what he seems to imply comes from nearly dying.

I'd argue that's what Vegeta means ultimately by "fighting strong opponents." The idea that the stronger the opponent, the more likely it is that a Saiyan will die and thus get these boosts.
Yes, in a normal situation that's the case (a saiyan loses power while he is fighting as he gets tired or injured, it's only after the fight -and before reaching the base state limit- that they have the zenkay that allows them to become stronger) but in Nappa's case it was different.
Nappa fought with a fraction of his real strength because his ki was disrupted by his emotions. It's the exact same principle Toriyama uses later with the SSJ, with the difference that Nappa could calm down at any moment (that's why he "powered up" in the middle of the fight) while in the case of the SSJ those emotions were part of the transformation, and only through training it to the limit they could be somewhat controlled (that's when a SSJ "becomes" a FPSSJ).
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DBZAOTA482
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1.33x gap at the absolute minimum

Goku dogged him the entire time they fought
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freezamite
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DBZAOTA482
Feb 10 2017, 01:52 AM
1.33x gap at the absolute minimum

Goku dogged him the entire time they fought
Nappa dodged Goku's hits as well (when he calmed down) and 1.33 gab would have been Goku totally dominating the fight. Nappa matched Goku in speed and strength, while largely surpassing him in damage resistance.
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Yeah, I don't think it's the same thing as healing boosts. Toriyama said that this phenomenon is a rapid increase that can actually help turn the tables of a single fight, which isn't the same thing as losing, healing, and then coming back already stronger and winning a rematch. This strikes me as a more temporary surging increase of power that happens when a Saiyan gets really pumped up against a tough opponent., especially one that's somewhat stronger than them.

Stepping back and looking at all of it, it's like you'd be hard-pressed to find something that doesn't make a Saiyan stronger. They get more out of training than other races. They get stronger from fighting tough opponents. They get stronger from losing a fight and recovering. They can apparently even get stronger during the fight itself, even when they're at a disadvantage.

If you ask me, it really just reinforces what I'm always saying about power levels being flexible, and judging fights only by numbers being pointless. It's like it's even more pointless when Saiyans are involved.
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lazerbem
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What doesn't make a Saiyan stronger is getting curbstomped but not brought to near death. Case in point, 18 and 17 slapping Trunks and Vegeta around. Doesn't get close to killing them but still wrecks their day.
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ahill1
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Nappa getting stronger in the middle of the fight doesn't really add up in my opinion. Vegeta was the one who said Nappa could have a shot if he stop being nervous. Vegeta isn't talking about Nappa getting stronger, but to what he is normally capable. Vegeta wouldn't be stating Nappa would have a chance if it was due to a boost he received while fighting, since the Prince obviously wouldn't know if his comrade really received it, none other than Nappa of course.

The emphasis is clearly on Nappa losing his head and in consequence fighting like a jackass, rather than a boost he just got and would make him on Goku's level. The issue wasn't Nappa's lack of power, but his state of mind, as stated.
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freezamite
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ahill1
Feb 10 2017, 02:56 AM
Nappa getting stronger in the middle of the fight doesn't really add up in my opinion. Vegeta was the one who said Nappa could have a shot if he stop being nervous. Vegeta isn't talking about Nappa getting stronger, but to what he is normally capable. Vegeta wouldn't be stating Nappa would have a chance if it was due to a boost he received while fighting, since the Prince obviously wouldn't know if his comrade really received it, none other than Nappa of course.

The emphasis is clearly on Nappa losing his head and in consequence fighting like a jackass, rather than a boost he just got and would make him on Goku's level. The issue wasn't Nappa's lack of power, but his state of mind, as stated.
True, but in Dragon Ball the state of mind is directly related to the power displayed. Nappa "powered up" in the sense that, when he calmed down, he could fight at his real potential. It wasn't a real power up, more like being able to use his usual power, but his speed, reaction speed, strength and damage resistance clearly improved as a result.
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OmegaSaiyan2
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¿?

i put Nappa at 7,600.
Edited by OmegaSaiyan2, Feb 13 2017, 04:05 PM.
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freezamite
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OmegaSaiyan2
Feb 13 2017, 04:04 PM
i put Nappa at 7,600.
Too low. Far too low I would even say. Nappa had already lost some energy with his previous fights (not a lot, truth be told) and with Goku's beating.
In fact, that he could resist Goku's hits while he still had his ki disrupted by his uncontrolled emotions only reinforces his superiority over Goku.

In terms of speed and strength, and assuming Goku was a balanced fighter (8000+ in terms of speed, strength and damage endurance), Nappa still almost matched that despite having lost some strength. And his damage resistance was much, much higher so he had to be even stronger comparatively speaking.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

There's no evidence to suggest that Nappa was higher than 8,000 at any point, even if we're talking about a hypothetical full power that we never see. His reaction to Goku's power level cements that.
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