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The gap between Nappa and Goku
Topic Started: Feb 9 2017, 05:21 PM (2,664 Views)
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EMIYA
Feb 9 2017, 09:05 PM
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Like Goku and Piccolo (low-400's) managing to take down Raditz (well over 1,000) by being able to drastically enhance their powers through special attacks, one of which had special piercing properties. Or Goku surviving and continuing to fight against both Oozaru Vegeta and 50% Freeza who were both many times stronger than him.


See that's one of those things that I think a lot of people need clarification on. it's like, Goku survived 50% Freeza so power levels are BS and don't matter. And it's like yes, Goku survived...mainly due to plot reasons but he still struggled with Freeza. The obvious gap between them was notable and beyond being able to survive, Goku is clearly outlcassed in this fight and its only after using ki enhancing techniques like the Genki-Dama or transforming into a more powerful form such as Super Saiyan.

The same thing with Raditz. Goku and Piccolo with their power could not defeat much less touch Raditz. Their 400+ could not stop his 1000+. It was only after Gohan came in with a PL of 1300+ and Piccolo's attack with a similar level that Raditz faced trouble. in the end, these characters won because they closed the gap or surpassed the gap presented by their opponents.

He survived due to plot, yeah, but look at Freeza throughout most of that fight. He's barely putting any effort into beating Goku around like a dust bunny. It's only when the Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha comes into play that Freeza puts noticeable effort into the battle and is pissed because of it.
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Slifer
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Goku was over 8,000 without Kaioken and Nappa was pretty much dead even with him. A 2x gap is enough to troll someone with minimal effort.

Vegeta at full power is barely above 2x non-Kaioken Goku. Stomp.
Monster Zarbon was well under 2x Vegeta. Stomp.
Goku was barely over 2x most of the Ginyu Force. Stomp and he probably wasn't even using his full power.

4,000 is nonsense.
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EMIYA
Feb 9 2017, 09:05 PM
See that's one of those things that I think a lot of people need clarification on. it's like, Goku survived 50% Freeza so power levels are BS and don't matter. And it's like yes, Goku survived...mainly due to plot reasons but he still struggled with Freeza. The obvious gap between them was notable and beyond being able to survive, Goku is clearly outclassed in this fight and its only after using ki enhancing techniques like the Genki-Dama or transforming into a more powerful form such as Super Saiyan.

The same thing with Raditz. Goku and Piccolo with their power could not defeat much less touch Raditz. Their 400+ could not stop his 1000+. It was only after Gohan came in with a PL of 1300+ and Piccolo's attack with a similar level that Raditz faced trouble. in the end, these characters won because they closed the gap or surpassed the gap presented by their opponents.

Good points. Admittedly true, it does usually end up being the case that fighters survive or prevail because they manage to power themselves up. But even that still goes to show that power levels themselves are a fluid and constantly-changing thing. Even guys like Nappa who don't have the ability to willingly alter their power levels could still have ways to power up and turn the tables as per Toriyama's comment. Combine that with the basic underlying truth of "no two fighters are the same" and gauging fights solely on number differences is just downright foolish.

It's like I've said before, if you had two stationary robots firing beams at each other, but one working at twice the energy level of the other, then yeah, the one that's only half as charged is doomed to lose no matter what. But DBZ characters aren't stationary robots, they're people with their own strengths and weaknesses. Everyone's got some different combination of body type, training, intelligence, natural skill, special abilities, etc...

So really, my original answer to this thread and every thread like it is legit...

Q: "How can Nappa perform like he did against Goku with only half his power?"
A: "By being exceptionally hardy, being a remarkably talented fighter when he calms down and focuses, and on top of that having his power level actually increase on its own during the fight."

...Which is a MUCH more interesting and thought-provoking answer than simply, "he can't, because gaps."
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SSJ
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The expert has spoken.
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I Banged Sam
Feb 9 2017, 09:56 PM
The expert has spoken.
Darn right I have.

Tell the peanut gallery on Zeta I said "hi."
Edited by Kaboom, Feb 9 2017, 10:05 PM.
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Kaboom
Feb 9 2017, 09:41 PM
Q: "How can Nappa perform like he did against Goku with only half his power?"
A: "By being exceptionally hardy, being a remarkably talented fighter when he calms down and focuses, and on top of that having his power level actually increase on its own during the fight."

...Which is a MUCH more interesting and thought-provoking answer than simply, "he can't, because gaps."
But then it raises more questions... like... "How come Goku's power didn't rise during the battle with Nappa?" ...and any excuse you come up for that has to apply to then next question: "How come Vegeta's power didn't rise through his battle with Goku?" because if you accept that they all rise... then Goku should've held the same huge advantage he started with, an apparent double'ish.
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Assuming he hasn't stagnated since the fight against Raditz;

Goku: 8,100
Nappa: 4,000

Goku (Super Kamehameha): 17,982

Why couldn't Goku just end him with a Super Kamehameha again? A 2x gap is enough to dance around your opponent, so it's not like he wouldn't get a second or two to charge it, yet he claimed it would take him all day.
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Vertical
Feb 9 2017, 10:06 PM
But then it raises more questions... like... "How come Goku's power didn't rise during the battle with Nappa?" ...and any excuse you come up for that has to apply to then next question: "How come Vegeta's power didn't rise through his battle with Goku?" because if you accept that they all rise... then Goku should've held the same huge advantage he started with, an apparent double'ish.
Toriyama's quote actually did say that it happens when they're fighting "strong opponents," and Nappa wouldn't qualify until the end of the fight. So since fighting a 4000 opponent wouldn't challenge Goku as much, he wouldn't gain power. Ditto for Vegeta holding a similarly large advantage against Goku... but it would feasibly help him when he was at a disadvantage against Freeza later.

Also, this presumably requires that the Saiyan at a disadvantage CAN keep fighting in the first place... if you just outright get your a*** kicked and lose power from the very start, you're not going to miraculously re-gain that power and more and effectively fight back. Like, this wouldn't help Gohan against Recoome at all.
Edited by Kaboom, Feb 9 2017, 10:17 PM.
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freezamite
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Nappa was clearly stronger, with at least 12k-13k units of power. He was a pretty unbalanced fighter with a huge resistance to damage, but clearly much stronger than Goku without any doubt.
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lmao Goku 5000 Nappa 4000.

Either that or the Saiyans learned how to raise power by the time that reached Earth.

But I personally believe that Son Goku was 5 000 and could raise power to 8 000, like I believe that Son Goku was 120 000 000 and could raise power to 150 000 000 against Freeza.

Reject me.
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ahill1
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Nappa, when keeping his head cool, was able to evenly exchange blows with Goku and his full power blast had to be deflected by a KMHMH, although quick charged. So I'd say he was pretty close to Goku (8,000+), therefore something like 7,500~8,000 might work.


freezamite
 
Nappa was clearly stronger, with at least 12k-13k units of power. He was a pretty unbalanced fighter with a huge resistance to damage, but clearly much stronger than Goku without any doubt.

12k seems definitely too high imo. He should be Goku's equal at best, unless you think he took that much damage? Well, no significant drop in power was noted.
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Kaboom
Feb 9 2017, 10:16 PM
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Feb 9 2017, 10:06 PM
But then it raises more questions... like... "How come Goku's power didn't rise during the battle with Nappa?" ...and any excuse you come up for that has to apply to then next question: "How come Vegeta's power didn't rise through his battle with Goku?" because if you accept that they all rise... then Goku should've held the same huge advantage he started with, an apparent double'ish.
Toriyama's quote actually did say that it happens when they're fighting "strong opponents," and Nappa wouldn't qualify until the end of the fight. So since fighting a 4000 opponent wouldn't challenge Goku as much, he wouldn't gain power. Ditto for Vegeta holding a similarly large advantage against Goku... but it would feasibly help him when he was at a disadvantage against Freeza later.

Also, this presumably requires that the Saiyan at a disadvantage CAN keep fighting in the first place... if you just outright get your a*** kicked and lose power from the very start, you're not going to miraculously re-gain that power and more and effectively fight back. Like, this wouldn't help Gohan against Recoome at all.
A fair enough point... but then it raises the issue of Vegeta vs everyone on Namek. He was clearly not as numerically disadvantaged as Nappa when facing the likes of Zarbon (for the first time) or Recoome.

And returns to my initial point of Goku vs Freeza. Their fight was lengthy and although Goku had a clear disadvantage, Freeza's gifted handicaps and easy-going's let Goku "stay in it". His power should've increased as a result, right? Which would result in the inaccuracy of the official numbers applied to that battle. Snarky remark (feel free to ignore): ...which is where almost all decent thought regarding power levels ends up.
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Kaboom
Feb 9 2017, 10:05 PM
I Banged Sam
Feb 9 2017, 09:56 PM
The expert has spoken.
Darn right I have.

Tell the peanut gallery on Zeta I said "hi."
They ask that you start serving private lessons. I'd recommend a minimum of $30 an hour.
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ahill1
Feb 9 2017, 10:40 PM
Nappa, when keeping his head cool, was able to evenly exchange blows with Goku and his full power blast had to be deflected by a KMHMH, although quick charged. So I'd say he was pretty close to Goku (8,000+), therefore something like 7,500~8,000 might work.


freezamite
 
Nappa was clearly stronger, with at least 12k-13k units of power. He was a pretty unbalanced fighter with a huge resistance to damage, but clearly much stronger than Goku without any doubt.

12k seems definitely too high imo. He should be Goku's equal at best, unless you think he took that much damage? Well, no significant drop in power was noted.
It's not only a matter of the power he had lost, but the fact that Nappa was a pretty unbalanced fighter.
When Nappa's Ki was disrupted because of his emotions, he could barely counter a 2800 masenko with his punch. That means that his physical strength was a tad over 3000 at best -let's say 3,5k- (with Krilin and the others doing what they did because of Nappa's total overconfidence + his disrupted ki), and in terms of attacking strength and speed, he seems to be more or less balanced.
Even if he didn't lose a lot of strength with his fight with the z-warriors (although he lost some strength without any kind of doubt) what shows Nappa's true value is when he could take Son Goku's beating and still survive it.
Goku attacked with 8k+ strength, and Nappa tanked that while still having his Ki disrupted. Those hits affected him, but not in a fatal way, which means that in terms of damage endurance Nappa was already at 8k.

Since we know that when a character has his ki disrupted by his emotions (or for whatever other reason) it scales proportionally (the SSJ had the same problem than Nappa, although much more accentuated, and we saw how it affected them in every single area), Nappa's endurance also increased a lot when his emotions (and Ki) got in control.
In other words, Nappa went from 3,5k strength, 3,5k speed and 8k endurance, to 8k strength, 8k speed and 18k endurance. And that's, as I say, without even counting the power he had lost (which couldn't be that big considering his damage endurance, so probably only Goku's hits had a bit of an effect on him).
He even tanked Goku's KameHame (it was a rapid fired KameHame, but he still took it) like nothing.

When analysed as a whole, that huge endurance has to be worth something. He matched Goku in terms of speed and strength, but as a whole, he was much stronger.

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Feb 9 2017, 10:06 PM
Kaboom
Feb 9 2017, 09:41 PM
Q: "How can Nappa perform like he did against Goku with only half his power?"
A: "By being exceptionally hardy, being a remarkably talented fighter when he calms down and focuses, and on top of that having his power level actually increase on its own during the fight."

...Which is a MUCH more interesting and thought-provoking answer than simply, "he can't, because gaps."
But then it raises more questions... like... "How come Goku's power didn't rise during the battle with Nappa?" ...and any excuse you come up for that has to apply to then next question: "How come Vegeta's power didn't rise through his battle with Goku?" because if you accept that they all rise... then Goku should've held the same huge advantage he started with, an apparent double'ish.
That could be answered by how they control their ki. Nappa doesn't control it like Goku. His ki will involuntarily fluctuate based on effort and will.
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