Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Rotation Advertisements



We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum.


If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we don’t limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesn’t take long and you can get posting right away.


Click here to Register!

If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk


If you're already a member please log in to your account:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Super Saiyan 2's design is terrible.; title
Topic Started: Feb 1 2017, 09:08 AM (3,723 Views)
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Pointer
Feb 3 2017, 06:40 AM
If you cant see the obvious differences between ssj and ssj2
There are none. They look like the same form.

"The hair is spikier."

Base Goku, Base Gohan and Base Goten:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Their hair is spikier in these pics:
Spoiler: click to toggle


^Do they look like they're in a different form here? No. How spiky the hair looks is irrelevant; that just looks like something to do with art style, not the forms themselves.

"The hairstyle is different."

Only SS2 Gohan's hairstyle is different from his SS1 hairstyles, and hairstyles being different doesn't make characters look like they're in a different form.

SS1 Goku, SS1 Vegeta and SS1 Trunks:
Spoiler: click to toggle


They all have different hairstyles. Do they look like they're in different forms? No. They look like they're in the same form. Because they all have gold, spiky hair, gold eyebrows and green eyes. The hairstyles being different means nothing.

SS1 Goku, SS2 Gohan, SS1 Vegeta and SS1 Trunks:
Spoiler: click to toggle


They all have different hairstyles. Do they look like they're in different forms? No. They look like the same form.

SS1 Kid Gohan and SS2 Kid Gohan:
Spoiler: click to toggle


The hairstyles are different. Do these look like different forms? No, they look like they're the same form.

Base Gohan at the start of the Cell saga:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Base Gohan at the end of the Cell saga:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Different hairstyle. Does Gohan look like he's in different forms? LOL NO. Hairstyles being different doesn't mean s***.

"There are sparks."

Not always and SS1 often has sparks as well. And sparks don't mean anything in the first place.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Nappa has sparks here. Does he look like he's in a different form? No.

The sparks are just something part of aura. Aura never makes a character look transformed; if it does, then by that piss-poor logic, everyone looks transformed when they simply power up. They don't.

Super Saiyan 2's design is terrible.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 01:53 PM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Constant lightning is not the same as inconsistent sparks. That's a huge difference between SSJ and SSJ2. If you're gonna repeat yourself, I'm also gonna repeat myself, we'll be stuck in an endless cycle.
Edited by Emmeth, Feb 3 2017, 07:49 AM.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 07:33 AM
Constant lightning is not the same as inconsistent sparks.
Even if Nappa had the sparks longer, he wouldn't look like he transformed.

You shouldn't even have to wait and see how long the sparks are there to be able to identify what form a character's in; that is overly complicated. You should be able to tell with one look. Because viewers see sparks at all, they get confused as to what form is being used. SS1 Goku and SS1 Vegeta had constant lightning in Neko Majin Z, too, as did SS1 Black in Super's manga.

The electricity isn't even significant, anyway; it's just part of the aura. Most viewers look at the character itself, not the aura. Aura does not make someone look transformed. By that terrible logic, characters look like they transform every time they power up.

Quote:
 
That's a huge difference between SSJ and SSJ2.


It's not. And there are many times when SS2 doesn't even have electricity.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 08:25 AM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Scotty_Rogers
Feb 3 2017, 08:22 AM
Quote:
 
That's a huge difference between SSJ and SSJ2.


It's not. And there are many times when SS2 doesn't even have electricity.
When? I can really only remember one time and that's when Majin Vegeta had just knocked out Goku. And he might not even have been SSJ2.

Instead of posting that Nappa scan again, I want you to post scans where someone is in SSJ2 and not have lightning around their body.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 08:26 AM
When?
Battle Of Gods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGEumSMd4xE
SS2 Vegeta vs. Kid Boo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3McVgOdWY
Wrath Of Dragon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQH5GggfPHE

There's more.

Quote:
 
And he might not even have been SSJ2.


"Might"

lol, don't you think SS2's design would have been better if it had something that would make you know for sure, 100% when someone's using the form?

Quote:
 
I want you to post scans where someone is in SSJ2 and not have lightning around their body.


This discussion isn't just limited to the manga, you know. But here are some:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Also, why you ignore this, fam?:

Scotty_Rogers
 
Even if Nappa had the sparks longer, he wouldn't look like he transformed.

You shouldn't even have to wait and see how long the sparks are there to be able to identify what form a character's in; that is overly complicated. You should be able to tell with one look. Because viewers see sparks at all, they get confused as to what form is being used. SS1 Goku and SS1 Vegeta had constant lightning in Neko Majin Z, too, as did SS1 Black in Super's manga.

The electricity isn't even significant, anyway; it's just part of the aura. Most viewers look at the character itself, not the aura. Aura does not make someone look transformed. By that terrible logic, characters look like they transform every time they power up.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 08:56 AM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vertical
Member Avatar


Scotty_Rogers
Feb 3 2017, 07:00 AM
Kaboom
 
Like others have pointed out, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are described by the man himself as being simply "powered-up" versions of Super Saiyan.
This doesn't justify SS2 basically looking exactly the same as SS1. The forms aren't supposed to be the same, so they should look noticeably different. Not drastically different, but noticeably. So viewers can actually tell them apart. Because they look so similar to each other, it's difficult to tell them apart, and that's a problem.

You can't tell me there's no problem with SS2's design when people have been arguing whether or not Gohan was SS1 or SS2 against Dabra for more than 20 years. SS2's design is simply terrible.
The only problem with SSJ2's design is the interpretation that it is a new "transformation" on top of SSJ. It's not.

At it's initial appearance, it was dubbed "SSJ Grade 5", it was likely intended to be Gohan-exclusive, and the author has described SSJ2 and SSJ3 as powered-up variations of the SSJ transformation. It doesn't have to be much different... it is simply an enhanced SSJ.

But claiming there's no difference at all isn't quite right.

In addition to the SSJ changes... the hair becomes more rigid, the aura becomes more fierce (SSJ is far softer and flame-like), their expression becomes more intense, and lightning is consistently shown (consistently being the key word here - short-term sparks to show intense power increases are unrelated). All of these additions/changes are a part of SSJ2's design.

The differences are much clearer in the manga than the anime... but that isn't the fault of the design. That's the fault of the studio handling it.

Are you going to nitpick the differences between SSJ Grade 2 and Grade 3 next? :x

At the end of the day... it's all just Super Saiyan.
Edited by Vertical, Feb 3 2017, 09:05 AM.
DeviantART
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Regardless, initial transformation and a fighting SSJ2 does have consistent lightning.

There are times when someone doesn't have consistent lightning, but that's when they are in "resting" form. There's also the issue of inconsistent drawing in the manga.

SSJ2 Gohan:
Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle


SSJ Goku about to fight Cell:
Spoiler: click to toggle


SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta:
Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle



My point here is that throughout the manga, this is a consistent fact. Forget anime, movies, Super and spin-offs. It's a very established fact in the manga that SSJ2 has consistent lightning around the user when fighting. SSJ doesn't have this.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Vertical
Feb 3 2017, 09:01 AM
The only problem with SSJ2's design is the interpretation that it is a new "transformation" on top of SSJ.
That's exactly what the name "Super Saiyan 2" implies.

Quote:
 
It doesn't have to be much different


It should be noticeably different. It's not.

Quote:
 
But claiming there's no difference at all isn't quite right.


There is none.

Quote:
 
In addition to the SSJ changes... the hair becomes more rigid[


It doesn't. The spikiness/rigidness of hair changes on the artist's whim, not because of the forms themselves.

Quote:
 
the aura becomes more fierce (SSJ is far softer and flame-like)


It doesn't. The fierceness of aura changes on the artist's whim, not because of the forms themselves.

Quote:
 
their expression becomes more intense


It doesn't. The intensity of facial expressions change on the artist's whim, not because of the forms themselves.

Quote:
 
and lightning is consistently shown


That doesn't make it look like a different form.

Quote:
 
The differences are much clearer in the manga than the anime... but that isn't the fault of the design.


Yes, it is. Whatever "differences" SS2 may have to SS1 are very minor, so naturally, animators get them mixed up. If SS2 had a more distinct design, animators would be less likely to screw up.

Quote:
 
Are you going to nitpick the differences between SSJ Grade 2 and Grade 3 next?


Nitpicking is what you're doing right now. The facial expressions change (they don't)? The hair becomes more rigid (it doesn't)? The aura becomes more intense (it doesn't)? LOL, you're bringing up completely minor things that aren't even there. You're not even nitpicking, actually. You're making s*** up.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 09:32 AM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 09:04 AM
There are times when someone doesn't have consistent lightning, but that's when they are in "resting" form.


And thus it doesn't always have lightning. You're backpedaling.

Quote:
 
There's also the issue of inconsistent drawing in the manga.


Making it more difficult to tell the forms apart.

Quote:
 
Forget anime, movies, Super and spin-offs.


LOL, no. The anime, movies, Super and spin-offs are all part of this franchise. They are relevant in this discussion.

Quote:
 
It's a very established fact in the manga that SSJ2 has consistent lightning around the user when fighting. SSJ doesn't have this.


As I already said:

Scotty_Rogers
 
Even if Nappa had the sparks longer, he wouldn't look like he transformed.

You shouldn't even have to wait and see how long the sparks are there to be able to identify what form a character's in; that is overly complicated. You should be able to tell with one look. Because viewers see sparks at all, they get confused as to what form is being used. SS1 Goku and SS1 Vegeta had constant lightning in Neko Majin Z, too, as did SS1 Black in Super's manga.

The electricity isn't even significant, anyway; it's just part of the aura. Most viewers look at the character itself, not the aura. Aura does not make someone look transformed. By that terrible logic, characters look like they transform every time they power up.


Again, I ask why you ignoring this, fam?
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 09:28 AM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

What I meant to say was inconsistent drawing in the anime. The manga doesn't have a lot of inconsistent drawing when it comes to the differences between SSJ and SSJ2.

You posted a video earlier where Vegeta was fighthing Pure Boo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3McVgOdWY)
Here's a few scans from that fight in the manga:

Vegeta transforming prior to the fight
Spoiler: click to toggle


Right after Vegeta attacked
Spoiler: click to toggle


After this Vegeta starts getting the s*** beaten out of him, in which the lightning disappears. Then he reverts back to Base because, I can only assume, he's so beaten up that he's unable to keep the form going.
So, I conclude that whenever they don't have lightning they are either resting, not serious or getting beaten up.

In the works of the manga, which is the ultimate guidebook, this is consistent. If this is not upheld in other works it's not the fault of the form, but the animators.


But, in the event that lightning doesn't specifically imply SSJ2, the form isn't supposed to be a huge difference from the previous form. You can call it lazy and terrible if you like, but that's, in my opinion, overly negative and it that case you're are basically looking for reasons to hate. I don't take people like that seriously, honestly.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 09:39 AM
After this Vegeta starts getting the s*** beaten out of him, in which the lightning disappears. Then he reverts back to Base because, I can only assume, he's so beaten up that he's unable to keep the form going.
So, I conclude that whenever they don't have lightning they are either resting, not serious or getting beaten up.
And thus SS2 doesn't always have always lightning, making it difficult to tell it apart from SS1.

And SS2 Gohan isn't "resting" here. He has no sparks:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
In the works of the manga, which is the ultimate guidebook, this is consistent. If this is not upheld in other works it's not the fault of the form, but the animators.


It is the fault of the form. The supposed differences SS2 has to SS1 are very minor, so naturally, animators get the forms mixed up. If SS2 looked more distinct, animators would be less likely to screw up.

Quote:
 
But, in the event that lightning doesn't specifically imply SSJ2, the form isn't supposed to be a huge difference from the previous form.


I'm not arguing it should be a huge difference. There should just be a noticeable difference, so you can tell the forms apart. Sparks aren't noticeable.

Quote:
 
But, in the event that lightning doesn't specifically imply SSJ2, the form isn't supposed to be a huge difference from the previous form. You can call it lazy and terrible if you like, but that's, in my opinion, overly negative and it that case you're are basically looking for reasons to hate. I don't take people like that seriously, honestly.


Sounds like you just don't take people who don't like the same things as you seriously. :lol:

The mere act of distinguishing SS2 from SS1 is difficult. That's an objective flaw with its design. It sucks. Let's take the nostalgia goggles off.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 10:03 AM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Scotty_Rogers
Feb 3 2017, 09:48 AM
Sounds like you just don't take people who don't like the same things as you seriously. :lol:

The mere act of distinguishing SS2 from SS1 is difficult. That's an objective flaw with its design. It sucks. Let's take the nostalgia goggles off.
Posted Image

No, I described it as someone who constantly hates on something and refuses to acknowledge other opinions. I've given you plenty of facts, but you've decided to brush them aside and continue to hate. To which I say "I don't take them seriously". You can believe whatever you want, but I have no intention of sticking around here to repeat myself over and over. You seem to like to do that though.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Pointer
Member Avatar
...

Scotty_Rogers
Feb 3 2017, 09:48 AM
Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 09:39 AM
After this Vegeta starts getting the s*** beaten out of him, in which the lightning disappears. Then he reverts back to Base because, I can only assume, he's so beaten up that he's unable to keep the form going.
So, I conclude that whenever they don't have lightning they are either resting, not serious or getting beaten up.
And thus SS2 doesn't always have always lightning, making it difficult to tell it apart from SS1.

And SS2 Gohan isn't "resting" here. He has no sparks:
Spoiler: click to toggle


Quote:
 
In the works of the manga, which is the ultimate guidebook, this is consistent. If this is not upheld in other works it's not the fault of the form, but the animators.


It is the fault of the form. The supposed differences SS2 has to SS1 are very minor, so naturally, animators get the forms mixed up. If SS2 looked more distinct, animators would be less likely to screw up.

Quote:
 
But, in the event that lightning doesn't specifically imply SSJ2, the form isn't supposed to be a huge difference from the previous form.


I'm not arguing it should be a huge difference. There should just be a noticeable difference, so you can tell the forms apart. Sparks aren't noticeable.

Quote:
 
But, in the event that lightning doesn't specifically imply SSJ2, the form isn't supposed to be a huge difference from the previous form. You can call it lazy and terrible if you like, but that's, in my opinion, overly negative and it that case you're are basically looking for reasons to hate. I don't take people like that seriously, honestly.


Sounds like you just don't take people who don't like the same things as you seriously. :lol:

The mere act of distinguishing SS2 from SS1 is difficult. That's an objective flaw with its design. It sucks. Let's take the nostalgia goggles off.
oh man. And what is the point denying everything we give you?... To prove yourself right? To prove what? What exactly you want to prove ? That an ssj2 is not a transformation just a powered up ssj?



Sorry to tell you mate but it was CONFIRMED in the manga that ssj2 is a legit TRANSFORMATION believe it or not.



it doesnt look as good as an ssj4 but is still an actual transformation. And Akira made it damn sure to draw the characters "transformed" whenever they were using ssj2 instead of ssj... Sure the anime has its animation errors, if you want to blame them blame them. Then go read the manga and enlighten yourself.


ssj2 kid gohan ...spiky hair with sparks = ssj2

ssj2 teen gohan .... spiky hair with sparks = ssj2

Majin vegeta and goku against each other .....spiky hair with sparks = ssj2


Vegeta against chibi buu ....spiky hair with sparks = ssj2



Posted Image
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scotty_Rogers
Member Avatar
Your Boy Scotty

Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 11:33 AM
I've given you plenty of facts
You brought up heaps of irrelevant information, moved goalposts, ignored several portions of my posts for your own convenience and partly misconstrued the things I was saying.

Pointer
 
oh man. And what is the point denying everything we give you?


I already responded to what you said before (see post #46). You're ignoring it and repeating what you said before like a broken record. No reason for me to respond to you.
Edited by Scotty_Rogers, Feb 3 2017, 01:52 PM.
Mah dogs are hongrey
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Emmeth
Member Avatar
I Yoeri

Scotty_Rogers
Feb 3 2017, 01:43 PM
Emmeth
Feb 3 2017, 11:33 AM
I've given you plenty of facts
You brought up heaps of irrelevant information, moved goalposts, ignored several portions of my posts for your own convenience and partly misconstrued the things I was saying.
Whatever suits you, big man.
Posted Image
My Twitch Page
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dragon Ball/Z Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Theme Designed by McKee91