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| Should ssjb be stronger than ssjg? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 28 2017, 06:04 PM (5,135 Views) | |
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jan 29 2017, 08:41 AM Post #16 |
 
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Ssj goku did pretty well against hit compared to ssjb vegeta but at the same time base goku made hit bleed and leave a couple scuffs on him. And obviously base goku is nowhere near ssjb vegeta even in his exhausted state. You sure it's not possible he used more power against ssjb vegeta?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 29 2017, 08:43 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 29 2017, 07:45 PM Post #17 |
 
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Beerus only remarked that Super Saiyan Red Goku surpassed Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, so that's why I keep the latter above Super Saiyan Goku. I'm gonna read the Hit fight one more goddamn time because this is the most complicated fight I've had to deal with in Super. Even the Black fight has been easier. |
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Jan 29 2017, 08:02 PM Post #18 |
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Share your views on it, if anything changes for you on your re-read. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jan 29 2017, 08:11 PM Post #19 |
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Beerus would've been able to tell if Ssj goku was as strong as ssjb vegeta though |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 2 2017, 05:58 PM Post #20 |
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You read it again and find anything? I still think it's important to note that base goku made him bleed and leave a scuff. Maybe hit's power was up and down throughout the fight |
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| + Pyrus | Feb 2 2017, 11:58 PM Post #21 |
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Base Goku didn't really do too well either. He was getting beat around until he figured out how to beat Hit's technique. His backhand was along the lines of a surprise attack, I'd say, since Hit wasn't expecting Goku to be able to fight back; the scuff was mostly cosmetic. According to Goku, the real fight began when he went Super Saiyan, and that was after he'd already figured out Hit's technique, implying he knew he couldn't get the job done as he was. Round 2 was much closer with Hit exposing his hands, so it looks like he at least started to use more effort. Not sure about a power-up. Again Goku couldn't get the job done so he went to Code Red. Round 3, Redku was obviously above Hit's suppressed power. Hit couldn't really fight back at all and his time skip was totally ineffective. When Hit went to full power, I think they became equal with each other. Hit was able to use his 0.1 time skip again, and Goku felt the need to shock him with Blue to get past it. The only thing I don't know about is Hit's reaction to Blueku's assault, because he's not visibly shaken like he was after Redku beat his a***, but he did say he was impressed. Then again, he previously stated he could only hold his full power for a minute at most, so perhaps he silently admitted to himself he couldn't win this, and Goku might have figured it out and forfeited so he could fight Hit's true full power another day. I think overall, it's safe to lump Hit into two levels of power: the level he used against Base and Super Saiyan Goku, and his full power he used against Super Saiyan Red/Blue Goku. He definitely used more effort against Super Saiyan Goku, but I don't think it's necessary that he actually powered up since Base Goku was nigh ineffective beyond one surprise hit that did nothing more than some cosmetic damage. I attribute Vegeta's beatdown to him not having any idea what he was up against, despite being stronger than a Super Saiyan Goku that was able to hold his own until he began tiring out; they should both be in the same tier, though, due to Hit's ability working on both. SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta > Hit = SSR Goku > Hit (suppressed) > SSB Vegeta (<10%) > SSj Goku > Base Goku Edited by Pyrus, Feb 3 2017, 12:05 AM.
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Feb 3 2017, 12:10 AM Post #22 |
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If you don't mind this question, Vegito96, let me ask. Since we're deep on tho subject, what are setbacks of Red and Blue? Name a hypothetical reason why Goku would choose SS3 over red and blue in the future. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 3 2017, 12:29 AM Post #23 |
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So would you say we still need to work with smaller multipliers but not as small as we thought? As long as things make sense I'm cool with it. Also vegeta seems to have been through a lot up to the point when he fought hit too. So he wasn't in the best shape to begin with. You think that might also have to do with it? The fact that he had already used ssjb, a form that uses a lot energy, against cabbe too, he could be further weakened. There are a lot of variables right?
I don't think there any set backs to the ssjg tbh. I don't think there's a time limit to it unlike in the anime. There doesn't seem to be any strain either. I think it's cool because although it's not as strong as ssjb, it's still really strong and has no big set backs so it's really efficient Ssjb on the other hand is really strong but as whis pointed out it uses up a lot of energy so it's hard to sustain. Ssjb vegeta was at less than 10% of it's power against Hit because of this(he used it against cabba beforehand). He said the form can only be used a few times in a day As for why he would use ssj3 over ssjg...i don't think there is a good reason to be honest other than if goku is just testing how strong somebody is. There's no reason for goku to skip to the god form to spar with trunks for example. He was surprised as is when he saw he was as strong as his ssj3 form I guess the only benefit of ssj3 over ssjg is that at the time of the tournament, goku needed to put a lot of effort to transform into it. Goku can snap into ssj3 pretty effortlessly now. But by the time he fought trunks he was could just snap into it like nothing for a split second so now ssjg all around better Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 3 2017, 12:46 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Feb 3 2017, 02:07 AM Post #24 |
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I do think smaller boosts for the transformations is in play now. Toyotaro (or Toriyama) may not be thinking in numbers like we do, but it comes across in the fights—particularly this example and Vegeta's fight with Black—that all of the transformations aren't hugely spaced apart, unlike in the anime where we've been told Super Saiyan 2 grants Goku a boost of at least "dozens of times." It makes a lot of things more sensible, such as Goku going into his fight with Hit without even transforming despite seeing Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta get absolutely trounced, and then merely going up to Super Saiyan rather than 2 or 3 or even God; it helps explain Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta being comparable to Super Saiyan Goku; it makes Black's zenkai seem ridiculously less insane when he's going from 1 to 100 instead of 1 to 1,000,000...granted, those are mostly personal preference, but it does indeed help explain the Universe 6 instance. You're right about Vegeta too. His fight with Magetta clearly wore him down, and then using Super Saiyan Blue for seemingly no reason took more out of him. He looks tired and aggravated by the time he fights Hit. Edit: I think I said this in another topic, but my personal numbers for Super now (experimentally at least) are 10/2/2/5/10, so Super Saiyan Blue ends up being a 2,000x boost. Still fairly hefty, but nowhere near the gargantuan boost Super Saiyan Red gave the first time it showed up. I might end up increasing Red to 6-8x, but I'm not sure yet. Edited by Pyrus, Feb 3 2017, 05:54 AM.
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| + Pointer | Feb 3 2017, 06:54 AM Post #25 |
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Ssjb 》 ssjg as it was shown in the manga . On the other hand ssjg was also said to be a state rather than a transformation and yet goku uses it like ssj in the manga. In the anime several statements proves that ssjb is above of ssjg . A transformation which surpasses super saiyan god |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 3 2017, 07:27 AM Post #26 |
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Do those numbers work for the rest of dbz though? |
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| + Pyrus | Feb 3 2017, 09:22 AM Post #27 |
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Maybe. It depends on whether you think Super Saiyan 3 was implied to be a bigger boost than Super Saiyan 2. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 4 2017, 03:56 AM Post #28 |
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Ssj2 goku/vegeta 1 Fat buu 1.6 ssj3 goku 2 Good buu .75 This doesn't work does it? Because good buu should at least be about as strong as ssj2 no? Or at least close? Goku and vegeta 1 Ssj 10 Ssj2 20 Ssj3 40 Ssjg 200 Ssjb 2000 10% of ssjb should be 200. That's too big of a gap between Ssj and weakened <10% ssjb vegeta. But again, we should consider that vegeta wasn't at full power by the time he fought hit Ssjb vegeta@hit needs to be stronger than ssj2 vegeta too though right? Otherwise he should've just used ssj2 over ssjb against hit Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 4 2017, 04:04 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Feb 4 2017, 04:15 AM Post #29 |
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I'm not sure how to handle this numerically anymore. The way I look at it, the fact that Trunks isn't God tier severely limits the progress of Goku and Vegeta, but then if Blue is 10x Super Saiyan, it doesn't come even close to reaching Vegetto-esque levels. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Feb 4 2017, 04:51 AM Post #30 |
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Well what we know is: -Ssjb vegeta has to be between ssj2 vegeta and ssjg goku right? -neither Ssj goku or ssjb vegeta were strong enough to negate the time skip -we can't have those two points unless hit had a lower power level against Ssj goku and a higher against ssjb vegeta right? Because ssjb vegeta can't equal Ssj goku if he needs to stronger than ssj2 I'll use a 3x multiplier for ssj3. That fixes any issues with the buu saga right? Goku and vegeta 1 Ssj 10 Ssj2 20 Ssj3 60 Ssjg 300 Ssjb 1500 5% and weakened ssjb vegeta 50 Hit@ssj goku 12? Hit@ssjb vegeta 50 does that fix everything? This way there aren't any huge gaps and it makes things more reasonable...I think? Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Feb 4 2017, 04:52 AM.
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