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| Trump's Wall | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 25 2017, 07:52 PM (2,650 Views) | |
| Political Piper | Jan 27 2017, 01:43 AM Post #31 |
 
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No. Haven't there been declassified files that show the CIA imported and exported heroin and cocaine under Clinton, and Opium under Bush? Pretty sure there is evidence out there of that. Personally, I think the war on drugs is pointless. But I edited my post from earlier, not sure if you've seen it so I'll post it here. I don't think having a wall that we pay for is good. But if Mexico does end up paying for the wall, which I doubt, but for the sake of argument let's say they do, and the money for preventive maintenance is also paid by Mexico, than I don't see how anyone could think that's a bad thing. How does it hurt having an extra barrier of protection at no cost to the tax payer? I guess what I'm asking is, if the wall could be implemented free from financial burden to the tax payer, would you still think it's a pointless tool to use? |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 27 2017, 01:46 AM Post #32 |
Izanagi!
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There's a demand for drugs in the US, so drug cartels are just supplying for it. If there wasn't a demand, it wouldn't be an issue, so you'd think that tackling people's desire for drugs would be the most efficient way of dealing with it, no? And no, that wouldn't be okay at all. Forcing another country to pay for a wall that costs well over $20bn just for the construction of it without them wanting it or having a say in it? That can't be good in any possible way. |
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| Political Piper | Jan 27 2017, 01:50 AM Post #33 |
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Hypothetically, Let's say the US closed the trade deficit with Mexico from 60 billion to 10 billion, and that 50 billion was used strictly to build the wall and maintenace repairs for a couple decades. No extra cost to the tax payers at all and Mexico agreed to the trade imbalance negotiation. Would you support a wall? Edited by Political Piper, Jan 27 2017, 01:51 AM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 27 2017, 01:56 AM Post #34 |
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Izanagi!
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Honestly, no. It's such an archaic, inefficient 'solution'. What about tunnels? What about people coming in by sea? What about people coming in on Visas and overstaying them? It only tackles people moving directly across the land border and isn't an actual solution to the problem at all. |
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| Political Piper | Jan 27 2017, 02:11 AM Post #35 |
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Archaic doesn't mean obsolete. Look at Israel, there wall is imperative to protect themselves from Hamas and other terrorist organizations. The Berlin wall kept East and west separated for years. Also, Tunnels don't just happen overnight. It takes months, probably years to actually find appropriate spots to dig then dig through and come up the other side unnoticed. A wall limits the type of crossing from driving, walking, running, hiding in vehicles, to just climbing and tunnels, and very tall ladders. Tall ladders are great to get up but they're useless to get down. That will take time for the illegals to lift the ladder up and over, giving border patrol more time to catch on. A wall acts as retention time for the border patrol agents, so they could focus on important parts and have more time to find tunnels and other routes of access. Walls are used all over the world, schools have walls to protect students, we have walls on our homes. I can tell you that cops have better chances of cathcing fleeing suspects when they have to climb a fence to try to get away instead of running in the wide open. Saying walls don't have any benefit is nonsensical. I found it very strange you wouldn't accept a free wall, one that is guaranteed to stop some crime. There is an added benefit of job creation as well, but that's irrelevant for this conversation. Are you sure you're not just saying that so you don't have to agree with me on one topic? =\ EDIT: Also, I sincerely doubt that every illegal immigrant trying to cross knows where a tunnel is. I find it unlikely that every illegal immigrant crossing stays in touch with others and are all involved in the plot to enter illegally. by sharing which tunnel they go to Edited by Political Piper, Jan 27 2017, 02:16 AM.
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| Daemon Keido | Jan 27 2017, 02:15 AM Post #36 |
Warmaster of Chaos
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Mexican cartels make too much money on coyote runs and that is what the majority of illegal immigration from Mexico into the US is. Simply put, a wall is not an issue if you throw enough money at it. |
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| * Yu Narukami | Jan 27 2017, 02:16 AM Post #37 |
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Izanagi!
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Why would you think that I'd hold a position and talk about it publicly just for the sole purpose of disagreeing with you? I wouldn't accept the wall because it's not addressing the root causes of the issues people are worried about in the first place. It doesn't address the desire for drugs and it doesn't address the violence that results from the drug trade. |
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Jan 27 2017, 02:37 AM Post #38 |
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Political Piper, I'll humor you. If the U.S. closed the trade deficit with Mexico from 60 billion to 10 billion, and that 50 billion was used strictly to build the wall and maintenance repairs for a couple decades, plus there was no extra cost to the tax payers and Mexico agreed to the trade imbalance negotiation, I would support a wall if that was the only solid option; however, I think that money could be better allocated to improving and reworking border patrol policies. Because let's be honest here, Obama and even presidents prior to him were far too lax when it came to policing the border. What exactly would I do in a position of power? First of all, the entire system and its policies need to be reworked. Instead of acting as a welcoming party, we should send illegals back home to fill out their paperwork. That's something so simple that we still don't do. As for where the money could be spent, I'm not entirely sure. I definitely do not claim to be an expert on current border control policies, but I do know enough to get me by in a conversation. |
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| lazerbem | Jan 27 2017, 02:44 AM Post #39 |
 
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I think that has a lot more to do with the threat of Israel flattening the place that any would-be terrorist would dare coming from.
Because the usual tactics used by illegal immigrants weren't available there due to the repressive government.
They already have tunnels, however.
The Rio Grande does still exist, and he'd be a lunatic to try and build the wall through the river. It's not uncommon to just form a boat and cross the river as an option. Not to mention the problem with sand dunes forming next to the wall, people could just walk over it then.
Or it just makes them spend more time to make sure that there isn't a sand dune build up somewhere in the wall that they need to clear up. And again, visa overstayers.
It's false security. Any half-determined person can climb them easily. Walls around schools and homes are more for aesthetic than their defensive value, separating them from the area around them. An illegal immigrant who treks through half the desert is going to be determined enough to find a way around it, and the casual immigrant is just going to overstay their visa.
You've been watching too many cop shows. You'd be amazed at how quickly someone can jump a fence in a chase.
So you say. Not sure if it would be true, however.
The illegals aren't but the cartels and smugglers do know and are in contact with each other. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 02:45 AM Post #40 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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The costs alone would be astronomical as already mentioned, including but not limited to the costs of building the wall, supplies and maintenance. A cost which could reach but certainly not limited to, 15-25 Billion Dollars. You'd have issues of placement of the wall, it's obviously not just cut and paste let's post it o the "border". But it's obviously not that easy. How tall will the wall be? Some estimation between 30-90 feet, which of course is only going to add to costs, materials, maintenance and all that jazz. But let's say they get the wall made, they get all the material, cost isn't a problem, placement isn't problem, and you have your Border Wall. As kind of already been said, drug, illegal immigration, etc...this is just done naturally. Sometimes as simply as walking through check points and not trying to sneak through like a spy agent. Underground settings for transport of drugs or illegal immigrants or whatever have been found. People having jokingly...and yet quite seriously just said...we'll build ladders. Building a wall isn't going to stop this and let's be honest, The Wall has nothing to do with drugs or illegal aliens. I know, that sounds strange and contradiction. But I would...with high esteem, say that the reason people want this wall is basically the idea of fear monger. Anyone who knows even a bit about what life for immigration is like for those in the USA, especially for illegal ones, will tell you that it's not easy. They come under the delusional idea of the American Dream, only to arrive in the American Poverty. They struggle so much that in some cases, it seems foolish to have come to the USA. But when Trump, the Right Winged Conservatives and whoever else talk about Illegal Immigrants like they're bloodthirsty monsters who will rape you as soon as see you, fear sets in. People are ignorant and stupid and they believe it. The same reason people believe weed is more dangerous than a combination of Heroine and Cocaine combined with the H-Bomb. People are misinformed, ignorant and blinded by this sense of hate and unjustified fear. Now that's not to say there aren't issues with drugs or illegal immigration, but that doesn't mean you effect an entire nation and heck, even our own, just because a few bad seeds are getting through. You especially don't treat the entire country like some criminal because of it either. I'll say it again, Mexico is our ally. We do business together, we hold amicable views as far as Countries do. We might disagree with Mexico on a few things, but we are not enemies. Mexico is not Russia, aiming it's nuclear arsenals at us in preparations for the Cold War II. Plus, I'm not sure if Mexico has a nuclear arsenal. Point being, you have a...troublesome issue that could easily or at the very least, respectfully be dealt with on a small scale, addressing directly that doesn't involve pissing an entire country. To end a long post, imagine the times during World War II when we had Japanese Interment Camps. We thought it was a good idea back then, there was fear mongering thanks to the Japanese attack and we took that out on Japanese Americans. We treated them in the same way we treated our enemies despite the fact that, they were not. We realized afterwards that this was wrong...and pretty stupid. We did not address the true problem, we lashed out what we were afraid of and we found out that, this was just plain wrong. Japan at least attacked us and deliberately started a war with us. Mexico is supposed to be one of our freaking allies, has not started World War III with us and we're treating them the same way we treated Japanese Americans. tldr? The Wall is stupid. |
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| Cal | Jan 27 2017, 03:28 AM Post #41 |
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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Been attempting to avoid this topic, but oh well.. There is nothing wrong with building a wall to help control the border. Could money on it be more beneficial if invested in other things? Sure. Is it a radical idea to spend a lot of money to put up a wall separating yourself from a country who has great numbers of people (some native and some not) who are knowingly and illegally violating laws to enter the country? No, it is mostly common sense to do so. The wall is not about 100% stopping illegal immigration and I think that is where people are falling off of the map. The issue is that we as a country don't have the right to complain about it being so easy for people to come into our country illegally if we don't do something about it. It will make it more difficult to get here illegally. If you don't understand this then you're misunderstanding basic geography. The talk of sand dunes and waterways is pretty funny. It's like saying you shouldn't get a security system in your house because it's possible to override it. The wall isn't about drugs. It isn't about racism. It isn't a fear tactic. It isn't even about Trump. It's an investment in the idea of doing what you can to promote and adhere to existing laws that some people feel very strongly about. |
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Jan 27 2017, 03:35 AM Post #42 |
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I'm only against it due to the money factor, and the fact that there may be other ways that border control could better be improved. But by all means, if it's being wholly funded and could actually benefit the country in some way, go for it, like Piper said. If it isn't being wholly funded, I don't think it's a good idea because the negatives far outweigh the positives. I admittedly haven't been following the issue much, so I don't really know how we plan to get the money for it if Mexico doesn't agree to the current plan. |
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| Tinny | Jan 27 2017, 03:35 AM Post #43 |
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All the wall is is a monument to Trump's ego. In effect that is all it is good for, a wall won't stop tunnels, ladders, rope, sand dunes, catapults, people with good throwing arms, people overstaying visas, boats, bribery, lackluster border patrol policies, or the demand for drugs. The last one is particularly important if we actually want to stop crime, because we have gone up against many organizations in Central and South America, usually winning out, only for the drug flow to go undisturbed, maybe even stronger than before. In the end, the best it does is make some out of touch fool feel better, and frankly if that's all it's gonna give us, I'd rather go with John Oliver's plan, and give everyone a waffle iron, or fund some funny cartoons. If my, or anyone else's money (and it will be the American people paying for this, one way or another no matter what "complex forms" he talks about we are the ones footing the bill) are gonna be used on something so stupid, I'd rather at least be able to have a waffle with it, instead of a symbol of America's decline. @Cal It sounds to me like in that case the wall is a symbol. A very expensive symbol, and frnakly one we could do without when we could instead revitalize and rework the current border patrol to have actual tangible results that don't become a massive drain on a country which already has a lot of debt we'd rather not keep increasing. Edited by Tinny, Jan 27 2017, 03:37 AM.
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| Cal | Jan 27 2017, 03:47 AM Post #44 |
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I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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I wouldn't consider it a symbol. I did call it investing in an idea, but I do feel there would be a real physical impact from it. Also, you'll find in politics that you often disagree with what issues are getting the most money thrown at it. I conceded in my opening post the money could be more beneficial if spent on other things. However, Trump ran a large percentage of his campaign on this very project. It shouldn't surprise us that it's one of the first heavy hitters that comes up in his agenda. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 27 2017, 04:01 AM Post #45 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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People are just, woefully ignorant of what's going on. Trumps built up his whole "Wall Slogan" no in the way that there was something inherently wrong with illegal immigration or drug cartels or whatever. He point blank turned a group of people into villains, regardless of their standing of context and it's this ideology that a lot of people have. People truly believe that Mexicans are exactly like what Trumps says, drug users, rapists, etc. It's the same thing in that, preventing the high rate of black crimes isn't to try and send every single person of color to jail so we all feel safe. Because we know that black people are not the problem. When things like black people are equally found to be in possession of drugs as white people but they are incarcerated at a far higher rate. Obviously something is wrong with the system, not the person. And if anything that's my biggest deal. If Trump legitimately thought a wall would help to deal with the troubles that do occur with illegal immigration and what not, and tried to treat it with a respectful manner. Well, we'd still have issues of cost and maintenance and it would still be a pretty stupid idea. But at least it would not be a s*** eating racist and xenophobic idea from the misogynist mindset of a dip s*** lying f*** who cares more for his ego than the goddamn people of United States of America. And you know what, it might be wrong to be so abrasive with such a subject on the Deep Discussion Section. But I despise such blatant "isms" to a huge degree and when this idiot is our president, unless he ends up solving world hunger or cancer, the only thing I ever want from him is the ironic US holiday where we actively celebrate the day when the President gets shot. I'll say it again, when you start treating the entire idea of immigration, and women and humanity in general in a proper and respectable manner, then maybe I'll start taking it seriously. |
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