Should the Government Force Universal Healthcare on the American People?

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Should the Government Force Universal Healthcare on the American People?
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 21 2017, 01:14 AM (2,052 Views)
* Mitas	Jan 21 2017, 07:16 PM Post #16
It truly was a Shawshank redemption Posts: 12,129 Group: Retired Staff Member #2,993 Joined: December 16, 2007 Gender Male Favourite Anime DBZ What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga DBZ, Full Metal Alchemist	Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the difference you're trying to bring up between 'tax-paid' and 'government-paid'. Government gets it's money through taxes (and loans, I guess), so it's the exact same thing.
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Dingo	Jan 21 2017, 07:18 PM Post #17
Posts: 557 Group: Orangutan Member #9,745 Joined: July 13, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Dragonball What Browser do you use? Chrome	I bet what happens will be similar to that plan by Paul Ryan where Obamacare's targeted subsidies for the poor are replaced with a universal tax credit increasing with age. Republicans will bet that premiums will dramatically fall with decreased regulation. Without all the regulations insurers will design plans which appeal only to healthy buyers and unhealthy people will be placed in "high-risk pools" with higher premiums and larger subsidies. The premiums will maybe have a cap at some % of the standard rates (for example 200%.) It'll probably still end up being too expensive for these high-risk individuals and only people like HIV patients will end up buying in. Since only the sickest of the sick buy in the average subsidy per patient will be pushed up and it'll lose political support as it'll be seen as a large burden. tl;dr I expect many sick people to end up without insurance but we'll see what ends up actually happening. Edited by Dingo, Jan 21 2017, 07:20 PM.
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Dankness Lava	Jan 21 2017, 08:18 PM Post #18
Dankness Forever Posts: 6,348 Group: Tha Dankness Member #9,197 Joined: March 16, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Hajime no Ippo What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Piece	Mitas Jan 21 2017, 07:16 PM Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the difference you're trying to bring up between 'tax-paid' and 'government-paid'. Government gets it's money through taxes (and loans, I guess), so it's the exact same thing. I'm probably just not very well-informed.



Political Piper	Jan 21 2017, 11:48 PM Post #19
Posts: 449 Group: Member Member #13,465 Joined: August 23, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? Chrome	OMG Jan 21 2017, 03:41 AM Exactly what I was about to address, Magma. Your use of the word 'force' plainly exposes how negatively you view it, Piper. They shouldn't 'force' universal healthcare on the American people, but they should implement it to better their lives. Same with education, as Nagito said. If you don't want it for whatever reason, then you shouldn't have sign up for it kicking and screaming, and paying for it yourself, or better medical treatment available elsewhere, is a fine option for those that can afford as such and want to do so. However, preventing your children from having access to such things based on whatever political views you hold is tantamount to child abuse. If you can't afford these things for your children, but insist they can't have such benefits due to some ideology of yours, then you ought to be punished relative to the damage you do to their life. The word force was specifically used because that is essentially what it is doing now, just not on a Universal scale. If you don't pay you get punished with a steep fine, 700 dollars last time I check. Which brings it back to is it okay for the Government to "force" others to pay for something they may or may not agree with? As Ben Shapiro said, are you ok with the Government putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do something? That is exactly what happens when you create a mandate that steps on individual liberty. It's metaphorical but the action is the same. Daemon, I believe Universal Health Care can be a good thing, if it can be paid for properly. I don't think it can be paid for properly until we eliminate the Federal Reserve. But I don't believe the Government should force it's citizens to do anything that violates their individual liberties and rights. Obama's mandate is unacceptable in an indirect-democracy such as the US
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* Yu Narukami	Jan 21 2017, 11:51 PM Post #20
Izanagi! Posts: 12,330 Group: Retired Staff Member #6,446 Joined: July 3, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None	Out of curiosity, who would reasonably be against Universal Healthcare, apart from the people seeking to make a profit from other people's illnesses?



Political Piper	Jan 21 2017, 11:59 PM Post #21
Posts: 449 Group: Member Member #13,465 Joined: August 23, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? Chrome	Nagito Komaeda Jan 21 2017, 11:51 PM Out of curiosity, who would reasonably be against Universal Healthcare, apart from the people seeking to make a profit from other people's illnesses? The problem with health care is that it is an emotional issue. It's hard to think rationally about whether it's beneficial. I mean we all want to be healthy, we all want our families to be healthy so that is what makes us look at health care as a right. But does the end justify the means? I recently lost my job, I plan on going to Law school is the fall of this year or next but until then I had to get Obamacare to not be fined over 700 dollars which I can't afford. I pay 190 a month now, but if I go to the ER I have to pay the first 7500 before they start taking care of me. So if something serious happens, I am seriously screwed. Without the mandate I would have some relief, but if Obamacare wasn't active and we let the Free market work I would be able to find a lot cheaper healthcare that covers more than I have now. When people think of eliminating Obamacare they think about going back to the way things were pre-2010. That's just simply not true. State borders inhibited the free market which made health costs more expensive than they should be. Until the Federal Reserve is gone I think we should use the Free market, no border states, more competition, and maybe institute HCSA. I would like to follow Rand Paul's plan. I feel that he and Ron Paul were spot on when it comes to individual liberty and the free market. People hate capitalism because they think it only caters to the rich. But the reality is that we haven't been truly capitalist since JFK. This isn't capitalism, it's corporatism, the free market can do great things but first we have to regress back to where we were. An example, the Wall Street bailout would have NEVER happened in a truly capitalist society. We would have let those big business fail.
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* Yu Narukami	Jan 22 2017, 12:06 AM Post #22
Izanagi! Posts: 12,330 Group: Retired Staff Member #6,446 Joined: July 3, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None	Political Piper Jan 21 2017, 11:59 PM Nagito Komaeda Jan 21 2017, 11:51 PM Out of curiosity, who would reasonably be against Universal Healthcare, apart from the people seeking to make a profit from other people's illnesses? The problem with health care is that it is an emotional issue. It's hard to think rationally about whether it's beneficial. I mean we all want to be healthy, we all want our families to be healthy so that is what makes us look at health care as a right. But does the end justify the means? I recently lost my job, I plan on going to Law school is the fall of this year or next but until then I had to get Obamacare to not be fined over 700 dollars which I can't afford. I pay 190 a month now, but if I go to the ER I have to pay the first 7500 before they start taking care of me. So if something serious happens, I am seriously screwed. Without the mandate I would have some relief, but if Obamacare wasn't active and we let the Free market work I would be able to find a lot cheaper healthcare that covers more than I have now. When people think of eliminating Obamacare they think about going back to the way things were pre-2010. That's just simply not true. State borders inhibited the free market which made health costs more expensive than they should be. Until the Federal Reserve is gone I think we should use the Free market, no border states, more competition, and maybe institute HCSA. I would like to follow Rand Paul's plan. I feel that he and Ron Paul were spot on when it comes to individual liberty and the free market. People hate capitalism because they think it only caters to the rich. But the reality is that we haven't been truly capitalist since JFK. This isn't capitalism, it's corporatism, the free market can do great things but first we have to regress back to where we were. An example, the Wall Street bailout would have NEVER happened in a truly capitalist society. We would have let those big business fail. See, that might work, but it's quite a few hoops to jump through, and do you really think they're gonna do that? Especially with the pharma lobbies having an influence; it's not in their best interest financially to be able to provide cheap healthcare. If they're not forced to, they won't, and if you're gonna be pushing to change things from the status quo, why not towards Universal Healthcare instead? Change is going to have to happen regardless. If costs are an issue, would you say that increasing the minimum wage would make people more receptive to the idea?



Political Piper	Jan 22 2017, 12:31 AM Post #23
Posts: 449 Group: Member Member #13,465 Joined: August 23, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? Chrome	That's true regarding big insurance, but by opening up competition you allow smaller insurance companies to make a stand. It doesn't matter if the big insurances don't want to drop their prices because their will be others that will who will want that business. The problem now is that the big insurance and pharma companies essentially have a monopoly due to government regulations which doesn't actually monitor the big companies, but makes it nearly impossible for the small companies to increase their business. I won't claim to be an expert on economics because I'm not, but I do like listening to Peter Schiff, he predicted the housing bubble collapse, along with Ron Paul, and he was actually Ron Paul's economic adviser in 2012. He does discuss how regulations designed for big businesses in fact hurt smaller businesses more and just adds to a monopoly of the largest companies. I do think that Universal Healthcare would be a common goal for everyone but I don't think that can happen until we get a President is who beloved by both sides. I do think Obamacare was loosely put together and whenever it was beginning to fail Obama just bypassed congress and signed executive orders to try to repair it. I acknowledge that he did it in the best interests of Americans, or what he believed to be the best interests, but every time he used an EO to repair Obamacare he just caused more and more division between the right and the left, and when premiums and deductibles started getting higher and higher, and Obamacare began appearing like it was about to collapse, that just angered the people more and more because they blame him for forcing it upon them. That's just my opinion on why Obama's attempt at Universal healthcare is looked down upon. Not so much that it is failing but because people were mad on how they were being forced to comply with a system that was completely unilateral and, in their eyes, only made things worse.
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Cal	Jan 22 2017, 12:56 AM Post #24
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade! Posts: 5,259 Group: Member Member #6,087 Joined: April 25, 2011 Gender Female Favourite Anime hentai What Browser do you use? hentaibrowser Favourite Manga hentai	Universal healthcare is a flawed ideology (at least in America). To answer the forum title-No, I do not believe it should.



Meowth	Jan 23 2017, 02:08 AM Post #25
=._.= Posts: 130,670 Group: Princess Member #23 Joined: November 22, 2004 Gender Female Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Fruits Basket	Yes, yes it should. The US is way behind the rest of the developed world on healthcare, not in terms of technology, they have a lot of that! But in terms of access and affordability, America lags behind, it is one of the few developed countries to have Universal Healthcare. Health of the people is very important and people at the bottom of the table usually can't afford it, for some, this means working even though they are ill because they need the money. Quote: Universal healthcare is a flawed ideology (at least in America). To answer the forum title-No, I do not believe it should. Why? You can't really say no and just walk off, unless you don't have a reason. Some people in America seem to assume that anything that is "left" on the political spectrum is bad, which is dumb and their views should be ignored. They can spout their views, but they are still stupid for holding them. The wellbeing of fellow humans is not exclusive to those on the left, it's everyone's business and if someone thinks it isn't their problem, they are selfish. But that's a problem with the mentality of some, they think that if someone can't afford it, it's their fault because they should have worked harder to make more money, when that's just not how the world works. No one should have to work themselves to death just to support their family. You shouldn't have to be rich just to continue living, that's absurd.



Dankness Lava	Jan 23 2017, 02:21 AM Post #26
Dankness Forever Posts: 6,348 Group: Tha Dankness Member #9,197 Joined: March 16, 2013 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Hajime no Ippo What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Piece	Meowth Jan 23 2017, 02:08 AM Yes, yes it should. The US is way behind the rest of the developed world on healthcare, not in terms of technology, they have a lot of that! But in terms of access and affordability, America lags behind, it is one of the few developed countries to have Universal Healthcare. Health of the people is very important and people at the bottom of the table usually can't afford it, for some, this means working even though they are ill because they need the money. Quote: Universal healthcare is a flawed ideology (at least in America). To answer the forum title-No, I do not believe it should. Why? You can't really say no and just walk off, unless you don't have a reason. Some people in America seem to assume that anything that is "left" on the political spectrum is bad, which is dumb and their views should be ignored. They can spout their views, but they are still stupid for holding them. The wellbeing of fellow humans is not exclusive to those on the left, it's everyone's business and if someone thinks it isn't their problem, they are selfish. But that's a problem with the mentality of some, they think that if someone can't afford it, it's their fault because they should have worked harder to make more money, when that's just not how the world works. No one should have to work themselves to death just to support their family. You shouldn't have to be rich just to continue living, that's absurd. I have met people with such a mentality, and I question their mindset heavily; it leaves me dumbfounded.



Cal	Jan 23 2017, 11:04 PM Post #27
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade! Posts: 5,259 Group: Member Member #6,087 Joined: April 25, 2011 Gender Female Favourite Anime hentai What Browser do you use? hentaibrowser Favourite Manga hentai	Meowth Jan 23 2017, 02:08 AM Quote: Why? You can't really say no and just walk off, unless you don't have a reason. The topic title is simple enough to deserve a yes or no answer, at least I thought.. Quote: Some people in America seem to assume that anything that is "left" on the political spectrum is bad, which is dumb and their views should be ignored. They can spout their views, but they are still stupid for holding them. The wellbeing of fellow humans is not exclusive to those on the left, it's everyone's business and if someone thinks it isn't their problem, they are selfish. But that's a problem with the mentality of some, they think that if someone can't afford it, it's their fault because they should have worked harder to make more money, when that's just not how the world works. No one should have to work themselves to death just to support their family. You shouldn't have to be rich just to continue living, that's absurd. This doesn't really have anything to do with being on the left or the right.... There is a difference in providing universal healthcare and mandating that all people of a country have health insurance. I can tell by your reply you're not considering this. The topic title is asked "Should the government force".. because America is mandating that people buy their own insurance. In doing so insurance companies are allowed to raise premiums and co-pays and the federal government is allowed to tax individuals annually because they didn't have it whether it was because they couldn't afford it despite it being a requirement... Should universal healthcare be a right? I think so. Should it be mandated? Absolutely not. In America we're continuing to prove this way doesn't work....



Political Piper	Jan 23 2017, 11:32 PM Post #28
Posts: 449 Group: Member Member #13,465 Joined: August 23, 2016 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball Z What Browser do you use? Chrome	Meowth Jan 23 2017, 02:08 AM Some people in America seem to assume that anything that is "left" on the political spectrum is bad, which is dumb and their views should be ignored. They can spout their views, but they are still stupid for holding them. The wellbeing of fellow humans is not exclusive to those on the left, it's everyone's business and if someone thinks it isn't their problem, they are selfish. But that's a problem with the mentality of some, they think that if someone can't afford it, it's their fault because they should have worked harder to make more money, when that's just not how the world works. No one should have to work themselves to death just to support their family. You shouldn't have to be rich just to continue living, that's absurd. There is also a lot of inherent bias toward the right. Most people think that if you are a republican you are automatically a racist. I've had people on hear debate me about right being racist. It's said that the country is so divisive but it is. I am in the Center.-right I believe in Fiscal conservatism but lean left on social issues, minus a few like late term abortion, transgender bathrooms, etc etc. But with regards to your other comment. Universal Healthcare hasn't been tested on a country as large as the US. There are those out there that say that since the US is so big, it is hard to anticipate proper enumeration of funds needed to pay for such a system.
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Sam	Jan 28 2017, 04:07 AM Post #29
It takes a mere second for treasure to turn to trash. Posts: 24,391 Group: Community Admin Member #415 Joined: April 21, 2005 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball/Z/Super, Hellsing Ultimate, Naruto/Shippuden, Death Note, Hunter x Hunter, FMA:B What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox Favourite Manga Dragonball/Z/Super, Naruto/Shippuden, One Piece, Hellsing, Death Note	Indeed. Force is a harsh and biased term. Before the ACA was implemented in my state, I couldn't get surgery for having two broken arms and a brain injury. It put my life on hold for a year before my right arm slipped out of the socket and I tore the labrum again - then another time while awaiting surgery. Because of the expansion for Medicaid, I didn't have to pay a dime of my $26,000 surgery to repair and partially rebuild my right arm. This was a debilitating injury - and with how stingy our government is in even handing out food stamps to the deeply impoverished like myself, temporary social security for my litany of issues from mental to physical was out of the question. If I lived in another country, just one of the things on my long list of problems would qualify me without much issue for financial help. But in America, that's not the case. We need universal health care. I'm fine with the Republicans repealing the Affordable Care Act, but, only if they have something in place to replace it. Considering they have been fighting it since 2010 - I'm shocked and disappointed in their complete lack of foresight and incompetence in the fact that they have nothing on paper to replace the ACA with once it's repealed. Meaning I'm losing my health care again. One slip and fall at work and I'm homeless. I don't find the idea of this very comforting. I don't know anyone can. The Republicans are dooming many people to die. That's just a fact. A plain fact, that I can see with my eyes happening around me. Denying it would be like saying gravity isn't real. It would be one thing if they had something to replace it with... but they don't.
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+ Kaboom	Jan 28 2017, 06:52 PM Post #30
Posts: 1,927 Group: Elite Member Member #9,984 Joined: August 24, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragon Ball What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga One Punch Man	I'm not gonna bore anyone with the story of my life's past 10 years, but the short version is that I have a useless Associate's degree and horrible luck with employment. "Broke and helpless" is my normal status, and I'd be dead or on the streets or both by now if I wasn't still living at home with my dad and earning my keep by being the only one who does anything to maintain the house and property. Suffice to say, when I developed some really nasty tooth decay about a year and a half ago, if not for the Affordable Care Act I would have been up sht creek without a paddle. But thanks to it, I got the root canal I needed despite my dismal financial status, and now have a shiny new fake molar and am free of the agonizing pain I had to practically drink Tylenol PM to deal with so I could get to sleep at night. I have personally benefited from the oh-so-evil "Obamacare" that so many people (including members of my own family and church congregation)* ignorantly flap their gums to condemn. It flabbergasts me that this type of system is actually the norm for most other decent countries, and usually works amazingly well, and yet so many people and politicians just... don't want it. For some reason, they don't want to accept what would almost certainly be like a 5% tax hike in exchange for never having to worry about medical care again. Well sign me right the hell up for it. Edited by Kaboom, Jan 28 2017, 08:12 PM.



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