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Sick goku, piccolo, android 19 and 20
Topic Started: Jan 8 2017, 08:47 PM (573 Views)
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Sick goku against android 19 is considered stronger than namek and yardrat goku because they all sensed ssj goku when he came back from yardrat and they didn't say he was weaker when he was fighting 19 right? And since piccolo beat gero that makes him really strong

But is this really that conclusive?

When gohan turned ssj2 and then cell powered up to full power they were still worried but gohan was still clearly stronger

So when comparing power levels way higher than theirs' the human fighters aren't too accurate right?

Couldn't they have just been too focused on how goku was kicking 19's a*** to realize how weak goku actually was?

I know piccolo and gohan didn't say goku was much weaker but at least they were still skeptical and felt something was up
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 8 2017, 08:48 PM.
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The two people that trained with him said nothing. Gohan was somewhat oblivious to Goku's ailment at first, but Piccolo knew all along what was going on. If something was up, he would've said something. He damn well wouldn't have let Goku fight if the guy was weaker than he was 3 years ago...or even below Freeza, of all people.
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Maybe it didn't matter though. Maybe he could sensed goku was really weak(below namek goku) but it didn't seem to make a difference because he was beating up the android. Piccolo didn't know how strong the androids actually were until he let gero attack him

So piccolo and gero and 19 could be above ssj goku when he's sick but weaker than namek goku

They could've just been too strong for gero and 19
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 9 2017, 06:38 PM.
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I Yoeri

The only thing Piccolo noted was that Goku wasn't as strong as he should've been. Piccolo trained with him for 3 years, but already knew something was wrong which indicates, in my opinion, that Goku was stronger in his training period with Piccolo and Gohan. He could still be stronger than himself 3 years ago.
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Ssj3vegito96
Jan 9 2017, 06:32 PM
Maybe it didn't matter though. Maybe he could sensed goku was really weak(below namek goku) but it didn't seem to make a difference because he was beating up the android. Piccolo didn't know how strong the androids actually were until he let gero attack him

So piccolo and gero and 19 could be above ssj goku when he's sick but weaker than namek goku

They could've just been too strong for gero and 19
Piccolo couldn't sense the androids but he knew how strong they should have been. If he allowed a severely weak Goku to run into combat without uttering a single warning, what would that say about him?
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Piccolo senses sick goku and says he's weaker. He sees him kicking android 19's a*** and says he should be much stronger than this. That's all I'm seeing. I know he's under the impression 19 should be stronger than yardrat goku and I understand what you're saying if sick goku was weaker than yardrat goku then piccolo wouldn't let goku fight

But they overestimated 19 and 20 to begin with because they were preparing for 17 and 18. So maybe it's just that 19 and 20 are a lot weaker and below yardrat Goku? Unlike 17 and 18 who are guaranteed to be stronger than yardrat goku, we don't actually know how strong 19 and 20 are
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 9 2017, 11:11 PM.
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Ssj3vegito96
Jan 9 2017, 11:01 PM
Piccolo senses sick goku and says he's weaker. He sees him kicking android 19's a*** and says he should be much stronger than this. That's all I'm seeing. I know he's under the impression 19 should be stronger than yardrat goku and I understand what you're saying if sick goku was weaker than yardrat goku then piccolo wouldn't let goku fight

But they overestimated 19 and 20 to begin with because they were preparing for 17 and 18. So maybe it's just that 19 and 20 are a lot weaker and below yardrat Goku? Unlike 17 and 18 who are guaranteed to be stronger than yardrat goku, we don't actually know how strong 19 and 20 are
It still comes back to Goku, though. Even if the androids were a lot weaker than post-Yardrat Goku, Goku himself would have to be weaker for a problem to arise. Vegeta could make a reasonable guess at #19's power by watching him fight, so I don't doubt Piccolo would have a similar ability.
Edited by Pyrus, Jan 10 2017, 02:08 AM.
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Well then piccolo isn't on vegeta's level of gauging people's power levels like that because he needed to take an attack from gero to know how strong he was
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Ssj3vegito96
Jan 10 2017, 02:16 AM
Well then piccolo isn't on vegeta's level of gauging people's power levels like that because he needed to take an attack from gero to know how strong he was
Vegeta did too. A guess still needs confirmation.
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ahill1
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The main problem I see with sick > Yardrat is the implications about #19 post absorptions. #19 post was stronger or at least on Sick Goku's level, as implied by Gero:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P12,1
Context: after Vegeta goes on and on about his Super Saiyan form
No.20: “Let’s stop the nonsense at that. Just changing like that naturally won’t make you a match for us androids. Just like Son Goku earlier…”


Changing like Goku won't do Vegeta a match for the 19 post, as stated by Gero, implying 19 post is at least on Sick Goku's level. Yet, #19 post isn't enough to be considered a monster to Trunks, as stated by Vegeta:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”


Based on this, I'd not like to have 19 post considerably above Mecha saga Trunks, which isn't possible if Sick is already above Yardrat.
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ahill1
Jan 10 2017, 02:43 AM
The main problem I see with sick > Yardrat is the implications about #19 post absorptions. #19 post was stronger or at least on Sick Goku's level, as implied by Gero:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P12,1
Context: after Vegeta goes on and on about his Super Saiyan form
No.20: “Let’s stop the nonsense at that. Just changing like that naturally won’t make you a match for us androids. Just like Son Goku earlier…”


Changing like Goku won't do Vegeta a match for the 19 post, as stated by Gero, implying 19 post is at least on Sick Goku's level. Yet, #19 post isn't enough to be considered a monster to Trunks, as stated by Vegeta:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”


Based on this, I'd not like to have 19 post considerably above Mecha saga Trunks, which isn't possible if Sick is already above Yardrat.
Why not?

And I've always quantified Gero's confidence as him believing Goku failed solely because of #19's absorption, and not in conjunction with the heart virus. He figured #19, now even more powerful than before, would be able to take on another Super Saiyan since he just beat one.
Edited by Pyrus, Jan 10 2017, 02:59 AM.
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When vegeta says that they aren't as terrible as they're made out to be doesn't that mean that they shouldn't be much stronger than yardrat goku if at all?
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Ssj3vegito96
Jan 10 2017, 03:05 AM
When vegeta says that they aren't as terrible as they're made out to be doesn't that mean that they shouldn't be much stronger than yardrat goku if at all?
I agree with that. I usually don't have post-#19 much stronger than initial Trunks.
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ahill1
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Pyrus
 
Why not?
Because Yardrat Goku is already noticeably above Mecha saga Trunks, making Sick Goku considerably stronger than the boy from the future, if we were to follow Sick > Yardrat implications.
Pyrus
 
And I've always quantified Gero's confidence as him believing Goku failed solely because of #19's absorption, and not in conjunction with the heart virus. He figured #19, now even more powerful than before, would be able to take on another Super Saiyan since he just beat one.
I find unlikely Gero wasn't considering 19's power level on this when he was pretty surprised after Vegeta beating him:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-149-index-2-page-15.html

It's also worthy note that #20 made note of Vegeta being no match for them AFTER Vegeta mentioned he watched the fight with Goku and that he should take care of their absorptions. While #20 would obviously not buy Veggie saying they weren't as bad as the rumors, he'd already be expecting a certain cautiousness by the Prince's part.
Edited by ahill1, Jan 10 2017, 06:07 AM.
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As far as piccolo goes...

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Since krillin had already sensed goku isn't this is practically a direct comparison between goku and piccolo? I know I complained about humans' power level sensing not being very precise but it at least puts piccolo around the same league as a super saiyan no?
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jan 10 2017, 06:39 PM.
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