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Post ROSAT gotenks
Topic Started: Nov 16 2016, 06:43 AM (1,864 Views)
* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Well, considering how strong Piccolo (a non-Saiyan) got while training on Kaio's planet, I'm willing to accept any training gains at this point.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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Nagito Komaeda
Nov 21 2016, 11:54 PM
Well, considering how strong Piccolo (a non-Saiyan) got while training on Kaio's planet, I'm willing to accept any training gains at this point.
I don't understand why people keep referencing that because we don't have a context on how strong he got through Kaiosama's training alone.

All we know is how strong he was after he fused with Nail.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:53 PM
Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 21 2016, 11:41 PM
Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:36 PM
Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 21 2016, 11:33 PM
Not sure how people are all that surprised here. We've had Piccolo go from a Battle Power of around 1500 to likely around Nail to much higher than him... by literally meditating on King Kai's planet lol.

We've had Freeza going from his normal self to God level in about four months, bringing his First Form to above an enraged SSJ Gohan.

An unbelief in something does not mean it didn't happen, it's your incredulity versus, in this case, Piccolo's ability to sense Gotenks from before training, and after training. The story proper trumps personal feelings on the matter, and it's clear. SSJ Gotenks from before training stood no chance. Base Gotenks after fusing gives Piccolo some hope, and at that point, we know and Piccolo knows that fusions can't transform after fusing, so it's not like he was hoping they'd pop into SSJ.
Yes, but his training was over a period of months (minimum weeks), not hours.

And Freeza is already stated to be a mutant, he was born with an unnaturally high battle power. It was stated that if he decided to train, he might've even surpassed Beerus.
And Goten and Trunks aren't incredible? The latter trained with Vegeta sure, but Goten was able to keep relatively around Trunks level by either play fighting every now and then with Trunks or just taking little lessons from his Mother. And mind, they're 7 and 8 respectively, and could individually fry Freeza with a casual blast in a transformed state. These kids are far from the norm.
I'm not denying that they have remarkable power, but 50x without zenkai is ridiculous, even by Saiyan standards.

That's even inflated by zenkai standards. Goku's Freeza Arc Boost wasn't even that much, and the only reason he got the zenkai in that limited amount of time was because he had a machine to drastically reduce the time it took him to heal from his injuries.
Even if they do get zenkai, you need to have time to heal from that in order to get the boost.

The same can be said about his gains during his trip to Namek, the only difference is that he had senzu to insta-heal him.

We can also say the same thing about Vegeta and Gohan. Their gains in that amount of time are attributed to senzu and Dende's healing ability.

Goten and Trunks didn't have senzu beans or any way of instant healing.
While true, just because a ridiculous event happens does not mean it did not happen. That's ignoring what's given in a story in order to suit your personal bias.

And to further how incredible the half-breeds are, look no further than Future Trunks in DB Super, with no one to spar with, with barely any advanced method of training, with most of his time being spent helping rebuild Earth and every encounter with Zamasu being quick and over with in short order. He is still capable of bringing himself from Cell arc level, all the way to competing with SSJ2 Goku after all the training he's done since becoming a God. And mind, one could make the argument that Future Trunks is more powerful than Golden Freeza. Someone who apparently only needed about four months *and* had access likely to some of the best training equipment the world has to offer, no pressure whatsoever to stop him from training. Meanwhile a mostly distracted half-breed is still able to surpass his power.
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Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 22 2016, 12:00 AM
Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:53 PM
Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 21 2016, 11:41 PM
Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:36 PM
Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 21 2016, 11:33 PM
Not sure how people are all that surprised here. We've had Piccolo go from a Battle Power of around 1500 to likely around Nail to much higher than him... by literally meditating on King Kai's planet lol.

We've had Freeza going from his normal self to God level in about four months, bringing his First Form to above an enraged SSJ Gohan.

An unbelief in something does not mean it didn't happen, it's your incredulity versus, in this case, Piccolo's ability to sense Gotenks from before training, and after training. The story proper trumps personal feelings on the matter, and it's clear. SSJ Gotenks from before training stood no chance. Base Gotenks after fusing gives Piccolo some hope, and at that point, we know and Piccolo knows that fusions can't transform after fusing, so it's not like he was hoping they'd pop into SSJ.
Yes, but his training was over a period of months (minimum weeks), not hours.

And Freeza is already stated to be a mutant, he was born with an unnaturally high battle power. It was stated that if he decided to train, he might've even surpassed Beerus.
And Goten and Trunks aren't incredible? The latter trained with Vegeta sure, but Goten was able to keep relatively around Trunks level by either play fighting every now and then with Trunks or just taking little lessons from his Mother. And mind, they're 7 and 8 respectively, and could individually fry Freeza with a casual blast in a transformed state. These kids are far from the norm.
I'm not denying that they have remarkable power, but 50x without zenkai is ridiculous, even by Saiyan standards.

That's even inflated by zenkai standards. Goku's Freeza Arc Boost wasn't even that much, and the only reason he got the zenkai in that limited amount of time was because he had a machine to drastically reduce the time it took him to heal from his injuries.
Even if they do get zenkai, you need to have time to heal from that in order to get the boost.

The same can be said about his gains during his trip to Namek, the only difference is that he had senzu to insta-heal him.

We can also say the same thing about Vegeta and Gohan. Their gains in that amount of time are attributed to senzu and Dende's healing ability.

Goten and Trunks didn't have senzu beans or any way of instant healing.
While true, just because a ridiculous event happens does not mean it did not happen. That's ignoring what's given in a story in order to suit your personal bias.

And to further how incredible the half-breeds are, look no further than Future Trunks in DB Super, with no one to spar with, with barely any advanced method of training, with most of his time being spent helping rebuild Earth and every encounter with Zamasu being quick and over with in short order. He is still capable of bringing himself from Cell arc level, all the way to competing with SSJ2 Goku after all the training he's done since becoming a God. And mind, one could make the argument that Future Trunks is more powerful than Golden Freeza. Someone who apparently only needed about four months *and* had access likely to some of the best training equipment the world has to offer, no pressure whatsoever to stop him from training. Meanwhile a mostly distracted half-breed is still able to surpass his power.
Personal bias... not really.
Given we have no proof of Post-Rosat Gotenks's base being more or less even with his pre-Rosat SSj, I wouldn't say it is bias by any means.

And... are we actually considering DBS as source material comparable to the original manga?
Toriyama might be at the helm of the manga series, but the TV series is being mainly produced by Toei. The manga series is way behind the TV series at this point in time.
The DBS anime's legitimacy as what we fans usually consider "canon" is questionable at best.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Nov 22 2016, 12:11 AM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Ketchup Revenge
 
Personal bias... not really.
Given we have no proof of Post-Rosat Gotenks's base being more or less even with his pre-Rosat SSj, I wouldn't say it is bias by any means.


I'm not sure what you're supposed to gather from Piccolo then. SSJ Gotenks according to Piccolo had no chance in hell, after being in the RoSat for a period of time and sensing just his base form (and at the time thinking it wasn't possible to transform after fusing) he thought he had a chance. What was Piccolo banking on exactly? Super Boo to just wait 30 minutes for Gotenks to defuse after waiting all that time to fight him? That doesn't make much sense.

Ketchup Revenge
 
And... are we actually considering DBS as source material comparable to the original manga?
Toriyama might be at the helm of the manga series, but the TV series is being mainly produced by Toei. The manga series is way behind the TV series at this point in time.
Super's legitimacy as what we fans consider "canon" is questionable at best.


Toriyama still has his hand in it though, and as far as I can recall has been giving his ideas to the storyboards for quite some time. Super is treated by TOEI and by Toriyama as the canon continuation of the original manga. So... until we're given reason to think otherwise, it is how it is. Retcons, horrible characterization, and wonky power scaling aside. DB Super is no less canon than the manga is.
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Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 22 2016, 12:15 AM
Ketchup Revenge
 
Personal bias... not really.
Given we have no proof of Post-Rosat Gotenks's base being more or less even with his pre-Rosat SSj, I wouldn't say it is bias by any means.


I'm not sure what you're supposed to gather from Piccolo then. SSJ Gotenks according to Piccolo had no chance in hell, after being in the RoSat for a period of time and sensing just his base form (and at the time thinking it wasn't possible to transform after fusing) he thought he had a chance. What was Piccolo banking on exactly? Super Boo to just wait 30 minutes for Gotenks to defuse after waiting all that time to fight him? That doesn't make much sense.

Ketchup Revenge
 
And... are we actually considering DBS as source material comparable to the original manga?
Toriyama might be at the helm of the manga series, but the TV series is being mainly produced by Toei. The manga series is way behind the TV series at this point in time.
Super's legitimacy as what we fans consider "canon" is questionable at best.


Toriyama still has his hand in it though, and as far as I can recall has been giving his ideas to the storyboards for quite some time. Super is treated by TOEI and by Toriyama as the canon continuation of the original manga. So... until we're given reason to think otherwise, it is how it is. Retcons, horrible characterization, and wonky power scaling aside. DB Super is no less canon than the manga is.
There's still nothing stated about Gotenks's power being equal to his previous SSj. And Piccolo was still weary about Goten and Trunks not fusing as Super Saiyans. That says something to the reader.

In addition to this, Toriyama also designed and came up with the backstory for Broly. Yet, that doesn't make him canon.

There's also no sign of Bra, which she's around Pan's age, in fact, I believe she's older. But where is she in DB Super? By our context of canonicity in DB, she should've been born by now.
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Quote:
 
There's still nothing stated about Gotenks's power being equal to his previous SS


If Piccolo says:

1. SSJ Gotenks pre has no chance against Boo.

2. Base Gotenks post has a chance against that same Boo, without knowing Gotenks can transform....

Then what does that tell you other than Base Gotenks post > SSJ Gotenks pre?

Quote:
 
And Piccolo was still weary about Goten and Trunks not fusing as Super Saiyans


Before they fused. He changed his tone the second Gotenks appeared.

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Goddess Ultimecia
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Ketchup Revenge
 
There's still nothing stated about Gotenks's power being equal to his previous SSj. And Piccolo was still weary about Goten and Trunks not fusing as Super Saiyans. That says something to the reader.


This hardly gets rid of him thinking they have a better chance than before in base than they did in previous SSJ. It just means he's wondering why they wouldn't go full out as SSJ's to end it quicker. And I'm not sure how you're supposed to interpret Piccolo's thoughts as anything other than power based. I have to ask again, what was Piccolo banking on if it wasn't Gotenks getting stronger? Did he get some warrior spirit or some super spirit bomb sword? There's literally no other way to interpret Piccolo's thoughts as anything other than a less direct power statement that puts Base Gotenks on a higher platform than his previous SSJ. To disregard this, is literal personal bias.

Also, refer to Hashbrowns for Piccolo being agitated about Gotenks not fusing in SSJ.

Ketchup Revenge
 
In addition to this, Toriyama also designed and came up with the backstory for Broly. Yet, that doesn't make him canon.


Hasn't Toriyama recently come out and said that the movies happen in different dimensions? And GT also being like a side story? He's already covered this.

Ketchup Revenge
 
There's also no sign of Bra, which she's around Pan's age, in fact, I believe she's older. But where is she in DB Super? By our context of canonicity in DB, she should've been born by now.


This counts as a retcon, retconning something does not make the current material non-canon, it makes past concepts or statements false or non-canon.
Edited by Goddess Ultimecia, Nov 22 2016, 12:32 AM.
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Goddess Ultimecia
Nov 22 2016, 12:32 AM
Ketchup Revenge
 
There's still nothing stated about Gotenks's power being equal to his previous SSj. And Piccolo was still weary about Goten and Trunks not fusing as Super Saiyans. That says something to the reader.


This hardly gets rid of him thinking they have a better chance than before in base than they did in previous SSJ. It just means he's wondering why they wouldn't go full out as SSJ's to end it quicker. And I'm not sure how you're supposed to interpret Piccolo's thoughts as anything other than power based. I have to ask again, what was Piccolo banking on if it wasn't Gotenks getting stronger? Did he get some warrior spirit or some super spirit bomb sword? There's literally no other way to interpret Piccolo's thoughts as anything other than a less direct power statement that puts Base Gotenks on a higher platform than his previous SSJ. To disregard this, is literal personal bias.

Also, refer to Hashbrowns for Piccolo being agitated about Gotenks not fusing in SSJ.

Ketchup Revenge
 
In addition to this, Toriyama also designed and came up with the backstory for Broly. Yet, that doesn't make him canon.


Hasn't Toriyama recently come out and said that the movies happen in different dimensions? And GT also being like a side story? He's already covered this.

Ketchup Revenge
 
There's also no sign of Bra, which she's around Pan's age, in fact, I believe she's older. But where is she in DB Super? By our context of canonicity in DB, she should've been born by now.


This counts as a retcon, retconning something does not make the current material non-canon, it makes past concepts or statements false or non-canon.
Despite Toriyama directly writing the original manga, and him not directly writing the Super manga?
So, that would make the ten years after chapter (which he wrote directly) non-canon? How does that make sense?

Piccolo's initial response to Goten and Trunks not fusing as SSj was fear, and then "they might", and then "probably not" because Gotenks's initial assault on Boo did nothing.
His entire assault on Boo did nothing.

Gotenks in the manga went Super Saiyan very quickly after he fused. The anime dragged it out for a while.
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* Yu Narukami
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Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:57 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 21 2016, 11:54 PM
Well, considering how strong Piccolo (a non-Saiyan) got while training on Kaio's planet, I'm willing to accept any training gains at this point.
I don't understand why people keep referencing that because we don't have a context on how strong he got through Kaiosama's training alone.

All we know is how strong he was after he fused with Nail.
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

Would Nail call a power below his ''unbelievable''? At the very least, Piccolo is >42,000 and, depending on how strong you think Piccolo was in the Saiyan saga, that's an increase of at least 10x
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I've had a gap of like 1.5X his Pre-RoSaT SSJ self in my previous PL lists.
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Nov 22 2016, 04:52 AM
I've had a gap of like 1.5X his Pre-RoSaT SSJ self in my previous PL lists.
Eyyyy, you still post?
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How long was piccolo training on King Kai's planet for again?
IT'S CHEESE
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6 days.
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Nagito Komaeda
Nov 22 2016, 12:59 AM
Ketchup Revenge
Nov 21 2016, 11:57 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Nov 21 2016, 11:54 PM
Well, considering how strong Piccolo (a non-Saiyan) got while training on Kaio's planet, I'm willing to accept any training gains at this point.
I don't understand why people keep referencing that because we don't have a context on how strong he got through Kaiosama's training alone.

All we know is how strong he was after he fused with Nail.
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

Would Nail call a power below his ''unbelievable''? At the very least, Piccolo is >42,000 and, depending on how strong you think Piccolo was in the Saiyan saga, that's an increase of at least 10x
10-12x over six days is not that unbelievable. I agree with you on that, but 50x in just a few hours is a bit over the top, even by Saiyan standards.
No one has ever been seen to increase their power that much in that amount of time from training alone, not even Goku or Vegeta were able to do that when the spammed the crap out of their zenkai ability. This of course excludes transformations and artificial power ups like the one that Elder Namek gave Gohan and Krillin.

And as I said before, Goku's zenkai increases in the Freeza arc were accelerated because of his use of the Senzu and the healing chamber. He was fully capable of making those increases by himself, but the amount of time that it took him to get those increases was drastically reduced from how long it would've taken under normal circumstances because he had methods that drastically reduced his healing time.

Piccolo was slow flying to Gohan and Krillin despite going full out, so it's unlikely he was much stronger than someone like Recoome, who was undoubtedly stronger than Nail, but was still considerably below Namek Arrival Goku level (85,000).
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