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- "Agender/Non-binary/Genderqueer:" Are They Necessary?
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| "Agender/Non-binary/Genderqueer:" Are They Necessary? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 27 2016, 02:04 PM (1,655 Views) | |
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Oct 27 2016, 02:04 PM Post #1 |
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The recent YouTube "debate" between Onision and Jaclyn Glenn on the subject of genderqueer identities got me really thinking about this, and I'm going to share my thoughts with you guys, however unpopular they may be. First, though, I do have to establish that "agender" is not the same as "transgender." Transgender recognizes two physical sexes--male and female--and a person's desire to transition physically into the opposite sex. Transgender individuals often feel physical and emotional dysphoria (a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life) due to their inability to identify with their birth sex. The state of being transgender is widely acknowledged and accepted by the scientific and psychological communities. My argument, and the main purpose of this post, is to suggest that agender/non-binary/genderqueer labels are unnecessary. For those of you who don't know, a lot of my theories are post structuralist in nature. Post Structuralism: an extension and critique of structuralism, especially as used in critical textual analysis. Some labels are necessary for the sake of social clarity, but most are extensions of 21st century "me" thinking. 21st Century "Me" Thinking: a self-centered, egotistical mentality brought about by the recent 21st century wave of Tumblr SJWs, "safe space" mentality, and "triggers." Barbara doesn't feel like a bisexual male or woman; therefore, she must pigeonhole herself into a more creative box. She is a pansexual, demisexual genderqueer, and anyone who refuses to refer to her as "ze" shall face immense social shame. In reality, she is just a human on a spectrum like the rest of us. Genderqueer identities are based upon social stereotypes, expectations, and perceptions of gender. A woman must wear makeup, a woman must love to cook and clean, a woman must be comfortable wearing dresses and skirts, a woman must aim for beauty, a woman must enjoy shopping, and any other infinite number of expectations created by society. A rational way of approaching gender identity would be to acknowledge that these stereotypes are inaccurate, built upon outdated concepts of gender, and fight to eradicate them. An irrational way of approaching this would be to claim a separate identity: genderqueer. There is no evidence to suggest that non-binary individuals experience the same dysphoria that transgender individuals do. Experiencing dysphoria over having a gender is the same as experiencing dysphoria over your own existence, which is something that many people experience without jumping the gun and labeling themselves agender. If you are born a woman and have no desire to become a man, you are a woman. What else could you be? Gender has been and always will be a spectrum. None of us are 100% male or 100% female (based upon social stereotypes); therefore, all of us would be genderqueer if we defined gender based upon societal expectations. My argument is that the concept of "genderqueer" is the inability to acknowledge the invalidity of these stereotypes; it is the selfish desire to confine oneself within a specific label to garner attention and support over something that every single one of us experiences to some extent. It is ineffective. Now, I am not claiming that identifying as genderqueer is a mental illness. It has nothing to do with illness and everything to do with ignorance. If a person experiences dysphoria over their inability to identify with either gender, the problem lies with themselves and their incapability of distinguishing fact from fiction, i.e. a woman does not have to dress, act, or feel a certain way. The point of this post is to say this: Attempting to pigeonhole yourself into an infinitely small group of people is pointless and dumb. I'm a female. Physically, that's what I identify as. Just because I don't fit into the umbrella of what a woman should be and don't feel like I'm a woman according to social expectations doesn't mean that I'm not a freaking woman. If I were trans, it would be an entirely different story. I would feel emotional and physical dysphoria due to not being physically male. No, "safe space" 21st century hooligans, we are not required to acknowledge every single tick of yours that makes you a human, and we are sick of this selfish, egotistical mentality that so many of you seem to possess. We've been humans for centuries, and the concept of genderqueer has been around that entire time without the need for a creative label or unique pronouns. We just called them humans. Pushing people to refer to you as "ze" does not accomplish anything on a social level, which is why I'm referring to it as selfish; it purely serves your own purposes. Note: I do have a couple of friends who identify as agender, and I do respect their pronouns. I would never say anything hurtful to their face or encourage anyone to discriminate against them or mock them for their beliefs. I am not telling you to treat agender individuals as if they are stupid; I'm simply hoping that we can move past this selfish need for labels and this desire for unique identity and move toward tackling the actual root of the issue: inaccurate stereotypes and illogical social expectations. Why did I take the time to write all this crap out, you may be asking? I have absolutely no idea. It's not like any of it matters in the grand scheme of things, anyway--just something that's been brewing around in my head. If you haven't already seen the recent Jaclyn/Onision drama, I would encourage you to check it out to give yourself some context if you're interested. |
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| Tinny | Oct 27 2016, 02:59 PM Post #2 |
 
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It's an idea perhaps, and this isn't even half as long as your post, but what do you do about intersex people then, those who's genitalia does not fit the binary gender or even sex? They're not that small a fraction of the people if we go by this quote:
I'd imagine those would warrant a nonbinary definition, even if you make it so every gender must connect in some way to sex, whether that's trans, male, or female, there are still those who do not fall within the binary.
This one is from a pdf from the united nations that deals with intersex is shown in the link. I would say that is large enough to warrant a specific label for them. Edited by Tinny, Oct 27 2016, 03:06 PM.
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Oct 27 2016, 03:01 PM Post #3 |
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Not necessarily. From what I know, most intersex individuals end up identifying as either male or female. I doubt they'd want a third gender applied to them. |
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| Tinny | Oct 27 2016, 03:03 PM Post #4 |
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Most perhaps and many do make a choice later down the line, but there are still plenty that simply don't, partly because their genitalia doesn't fit either gender perfectly. At the very least it should be a choice. Though in any case most would rather be treated as people first obviously. I would also say I've heard the line of thought that gender is mostly there in order to know how to act around someone generally, in accordance to stereotypes. In which case a rather specific gender might actually help (though obviously the person in question needs to be understanding if it's not an immediately identifiable gender such as man or woman). Edited by Tinny, Oct 27 2016, 03:06 PM.
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Oct 27 2016, 03:13 PM Post #5 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ftZ498YeY&feature=youtu.be I'm not able to watch this right now because I'm at work, but I saw it pop up on my feed. The phrase "androgyny of the psyche" really drew me in. I think it would probably be an interesting watch, as (like I said in the OP) I think that a bit of androgyny is common in most people on this planet. As far as intersex goes, I stand by my statement that I don't think they would want a third gender applied to them, and you can't even tell if a person is intersex to begin with. If a person is born with both genitalia and identifies as a woman, they are a woman. I've never known of any intersex individuals who feel dysphoria over having to choose from one of two sexes, but I'm not saying it's impossible. Just a very unlikely scenario. To begin with, most parents opt for surgery shortly after the baby is born so that this isn't an issue (or so that they end up transgender later on in life). It's all very complicated, though. |
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| PocketGod | Oct 27 2016, 03:45 PM Post #6 |
 
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Nope not really- it's just made up crap for no reason that only people on the internet use :V |
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| Dingo | Oct 27 2016, 03:51 PM Post #7 |
 
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More words the better I always say. |
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Wisdom Wisdom Pack
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| Copy_Ninja | Oct 27 2016, 03:59 PM Post #8 |
Novacane for the pain
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I don't really see the issue tbh. If someone wants to be referred to as xir or ze or whatever other pronoun then fine, that's what I'll call them. It makes absolutely no difference to my life and only has an effect on the person making the request. This effects such a minuscule proportion of the population that youmight never run in to anybody who identifies this way. It might be all for attention, then again it might not. I don't think it really matters though because it takes such a small amount of effort on my part that it's not worth really considering.
Edited by Copy_Ninja, Oct 27 2016, 04:14 PM.
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| lazerbem | Oct 27 2016, 04:34 PM Post #9 |
 
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My problem with these pronouns is mostly how they screw with language. It's all well and good for English, but the recent trend of some people saying "Latinx" instead of "Latinos/Latinas" really annoys me because Spanish is a gendered language. Sure, I'll use them, but it just feels a lot more irritating. |
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| * Mitas | Oct 27 2016, 05:01 PM Post #10 |
It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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I don't believe they are necessary. I was actually having this discussion with my younger sister the other day because she said she's Pansexual and it led to a discussion about sexuality and gender (I said I don't really see a difference between Bi- & Pansexual). I think that there are two sexes, male and female, and that gender is a pretty pointless addition to that because it all comes down to personality. Gender roles can change with the times, or vary by culture, and things like wearing certain clothing and having certain hairstyles doesn't really relate to your sex because again, they're all things assigned to either male or female by different cultures and eras. Just because you're a male who leans towards characteristics that fall under a feminine banner, that doesn't make you genderfluid, it's just your personality. You're still a male biologically. And vice versa for females with 'typically' male characteristics. I think the labelling and categorising aspect of it is more of an identity crisis. And that's fine, like Copy said, if people want to be referred to as something in particular then that's fine, I'm happy to do so, but I just don't like being made to feel like I'm intolerant or ignorant. It's not like I'm unaccepting of how they view themselves, I just don't see the point of creating all these boxes to put yourself in. Just be you in your own box. Edit: Reading that last part back I realised I said I don't see the point in creating boxes and then basically said to create 7 billion different boxes. What i meant was that being in a box or under a label shouldn't be necessary in relation to personality and who you are. Edited by Mitas, Oct 27 2016, 05:04 PM.
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| Tinny | Oct 27 2016, 05:12 PM Post #11 |
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Mitas, on the topic of sexes, there are people who's genitalia doesn't fall under either gender, having resulted in specialists in determining sex to be called in to determine their sex. I even linked a report on it from the U.N. The idea that there are only two sexes is arguably dangerous as the genitalia it's not thought of as intersex but as a deformity, which has ranged from the genitalia not fitting neatly into one binary sex to penises that are took large getting surgically alerted so that the person in question now looks like a woman.from the above link I posted. Whether or not someone who fits into those binaries should choose it is anger topic, but more than two sexes exist, however rare it is. Edited by Tinny, Oct 27 2016, 05:24 PM.
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Oct 27 2016, 05:15 PM Post #12 |
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You worded that well. I was talking with my boyfriend about it at lunch today and came to the conclusion that, to me, an agender person would be someone who doesn't identify with either biological sex and feels dysphoria because they have reproductive organs; they would more than likely want to have whatever organs they do have removed. If you're biologically male, are okay with being biologically male, but are extremely feminine and enjoy exclusively feminine things, you are still a man. If being called "he" bothers you, then perhaps that discomfort stems from something psychological (you're perfectly content with being biologically male but refuse to be called he?) It's all well and good if you still insist on being called "they," and you should expect respect from family and friends, but don't be shocked when people disagree with your reasoning and rationale. It could also be done in an effort to exclude oneself from society, and I get that. We all feel that way. None of us want to be a part of the messed up, bigoted, homophobic, sexist society that we live in, but pigeonholing yourself into an infinitely small category isn't a solution to the problem. Again, if it makes you happy, go for it, but don't expect others to take you super seriously. I'm sure that many teens who identify as "genderqueer" or "agender" today will feel differently with time. I used to think that giving myself the "demisexual" label was necessary until I realized that me feeling that way wasn't an oddity. I'm definitely not 50/50 bisexual either, but labeling myself something cool and exotic isn't necessary--bisexual gets the point across well enough to anyone who asks. If they don't ask, I don't make a point of labeling myself at all. It's just... not necessary. It's no one's business but my own and whoever I happen to be in a relationship with. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Oct 27 2016, 05:32 PM Post #13 |
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You might not run in to it yourself, but people do, and you see videos of people getting irate in public whenever their him or herness—usually herness, it seems—has been assumed. Buuberries posted a video a couple of days ago with someone taking issue at being politely referred to her 'her' right at the start of it; which is where I turned it off. This personalised pronoun nonsense is where I draw the line. It is people demanding special attention through getting others to use extra words solely for them, because there is already the perfectly legitimate, widely used, singular 'they'. They want to shove in this unnecessary function, and expect that people learn and unlearn things purely to satisfy their ego. What else are they doing? Some of them act as if the hims and hers of the world get extra respect, are treated more as humans by being called what they "want" to be called, completely ignoring the fact that these things—just like 'they'—have arisen as ostensibly necessary functions, not the desires of individuals that are already represented in the language. Treating everyone with respect is something I agree with, but not catering to their whims because they expect it, or should get angered or upset should you not. It's just as unnecessary and ridiculous as someone expecting to be called "dragon", or something. I'll happily use the singular 'they' for anyone that feels more comfortable with it, but I'm not going to bother with people that are in this business to make themselves feel special. As far as whether people are really something other than a 'him' or 'her', I agree with you, OFG, that this probably wouldn't be necessary if people weren't defining a "him" as someone that's "in to all of this and that, and definitely owns a toolbox", and a "her" as "someone that paints their nails". When you find yourself relating to neither, it's reasonable that you'd reject both as representative of you. Though, I actually think that this would probably extend to less people feeling transgendered, too - more controversially, I'm sure. |
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| + Steve | Oct 27 2016, 09:04 PM Post #14 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I think their pretty much pointless, everyone just wants to be a special snowflake and it won't end with these. I've seen charts of other names where people suggest that being 80% male and 20% female classifies as a whole new gender. And virtually every other variation to those percentages. Male, female, transgender, androgynous or without gender are the only ones that really make any sense. Identifying as partly male and partly female just sounds like a choice to me, how can you possibly feel like a bit of both? Who wakes up one day and decides they feel like a man or a woman? You are one or you aren't. What do these people even base their gender identities on? I love a good chick flick, does that make me 20% female thus genderqueer? Or if a woman likes a stereotypically "Man" thing like sports or gaming is she also partly male so genderqueer? Or is she just a woman that likes sports/gaming? As far as I'm concerned yes. Changing gendered languages is just the dumbest thing, whining about changing a whole culture just for an extremely tiny amount of people. If someone's life is ruined by mistakenly being referred to as a "He" when they're in fact a "She" then they have other problems. |
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| Copy_Ninja | Oct 28 2016, 01:56 AM Post #15 |
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Novacane for the pain
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Sure, that person was being an a***** and deserves to be called such for their behaviour. I agree with the point that, if you're using different pronouns that aren't common, then you should expect people to not know that before you tell them, it's common sense. As long as people are polite about asking for these pronouns to be used though, I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. |
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