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- How strong is goten and trunks?
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| How strong is goten and trunks?; How strong is goten and trunks using piccolo levels | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 29 2016, 01:38 AM (3,906 Views) | |
| Thiln | Aug 29 2016, 02:20 PM Post #46 |
 
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Then he should be capable of defeating #18. Vegeta is stronger than his son who was handling himself well against her while encumbered. However, that's a far cry from being strong enough to hold the advantage over Piccolo whom we last we saw was able to stand his ground against a murderous Cell Jr. |
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| Slifer | Aug 29 2016, 02:24 PM Post #47 |
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Then we're in agreement. I just don't understanding people disregarding Vegeta's statement "because he's arrogant" when this really isn't a case of arrogance and nothing says he's wrong. I mean he knows how strong 18 is seeing as he already get his a*** kicked by her once. If he doesn't think he can beat in her Base now then he isn't going to say that. It's flat-out not arrogance.
Edited by Slifer, Aug 29 2016, 02:26 PM.
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| Sincrow | Aug 29 2016, 02:55 PM Post #48 |
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I believe that goten and trunks are half as strong as goku and vegeta. And i have goku and vegeta about 2.5x cell saga goku if what was said about them being stronger than cell saga gohan. So i have goten and trunks 1.25x cell saga goku. Ssj2 goku and vegeta > ssj2 teen gohan > ssj goku and vegeta > ssj teen gohan > ssj goten and trunks > ssj cell saga goku. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 29 2016, 03:28 PM Post #49 |
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But she's had to restrain herself far more than that to fight and not kill all of the human opponents she's had to fight. If we say she's somewhere in the area of 300,000,000 for argument's sake, and the regular humans are, say, 25, her using a power level of 50 would be using 0.0016% of even just 1% of her power. 6,000,000x weaker than than her full power. Her using a whole 1 - 3% of her power, or whatever, should be a walk in the park by comparison. That's only 100x weaker at best. She said it's hard, not impossible, and if she can manage it to that extent against the machine and regular humans—against Satan and that other guy she kicked—then restricting herself to a Krillin-like level is hardly absurd. Plus, power restriction is certainly not Freeza exclusive, since Future Trunks' reading of 5, which he seems perfectly natural in, would also be way, way below 1% of his power, and, as you pointed out, Future #17 comfortably restricted himself somewhat. |
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| Mihawk | Aug 29 2016, 04:16 PM Post #50 |
 
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If she could bring her power down to match, I imagine she would be able to bring her power up enough to overpower them as well of which she didn't (probably couldn't) do. As for not wanting to hurt the crowd etc. she certainly managed that against Vegeta being far, far more lackadaisical against him. She didn't need too much surface area to take him out when she got (semi) serious and also didn't even need to use ki blasts. The gap between the base kids and #18 seems to be much smaller than the gap between SSJ Vegeta and #18 especially when you factor the costume's hinderance. |
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| Amerson26 | Aug 29 2016, 04:35 PM Post #51 |
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Amd theres no way vegeta is stromger the piccolo in base no way. Plus piccolo could had got strong over the years. So how would vegeta even know his peak of power? I'm so glad super boost piccolo because people stay trying under play him like he don't train at all. Piccolo is not gohan make no mistake👍 Edited by Amerson26, Aug 29 2016, 05:13 PM.
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| Goku9001 | Aug 29 2016, 05:15 PM Post #52 |
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The suit did severely hinder their mobility to the point where even maneuvering around as a Super Saiyan was difficult and the suit greatly diminished Goten's Line of Sight, so Goten couldn't react to any of Android 18's hits, indicated by the fact that Trunks was pestering Goten to fight back and dodge the entire time. Trunks only had usage of his upper-body whereas Android 18 had usage of her entire body. Trunks was severely hindered and unlike Android 18, Akira Toriyama highlighted factors that held Trunks & Goten back during the fight. The entire argument revolving around Android 18 suppressing herself isn't even implied in the least. The Kids being powerful wasn't an argument, it's something to take into consideration when Akira Toriyama drew the scene, using the Base Kids ability to fight someone who surpassed the level of a Super Saiyan years before to emphasize directly how strong they were, especially when Toriyama clearly displayed that the Kids could keep up with the Adults somewhat. Android 18 wasn't even smiling when fighting the Base Kids. She was cautious the entire time and acknowledged how powerful they were in comparison to SSJ Vegeta where she was clearly smiling and enjoying ridiculing his own strength. Furthermore, Android 18 was merely smiling because she identified Masked Man's identity, not because of his strength and the moment they fire a heavily suppressed ki blast is the moment where instead of smiling, she's left in complete and utter shock. DEBUNKED. There is a blindside attack. Instead of continuously fighting back, she instead, flies up to evade Trunks's attack and quickly sneaks up within his blindspot to deal a heavy blow:  And despite Trunks being completely defenseless due to being struck in his blind-spot, he hops out unscathed:  If Android 18 resorted to a blind-side attack to deal a heavy-blow, there's realistically no way Android 18 was holding back. Edited by Goku9001, Aug 29 2016, 05:18 PM.
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Aug 29 2016, 05:23 PM Post #53 |
 
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Goku is stronger than Vegeta in this tournament. It's why Vegeta got the Majin Boost. Nothing shows Vegeta (Base)>Piccolo Pretty sure I'm using the term arrogant right in this situation when regsrding that statement & based on how Vegeta's character portrayed in the past. Did he lose this attitude before he went to the tournament all of a sudden. No he didn't. Gr8. So we agree that using this statement is not viable to the discussion. Otherwise, we would both be assuming scenarios. Again, it hasn't been shown how they train. Also, I don't have the kids anywhere near the adults @ this point of time. You contradict Super with that statement. Unless of course you think ssj Blue Vegeta was using 100% of his power against Future Trunks... Not really. Vegeta is training his son. He stated that he was proud of his son. So why is it hard to see that Vegeta held back in order to make Trunks stronger. How is this even viable. They could see where they were hitting. They weren't fighting blind in this match. They could see, were able to hit, fly, dodge,etc. She should have been worried when they turned ssj then. Not smiling. Doesn't make sense. She's just ending the match fast as she can't handle this situation as well as she would have liked. She confirms this when she is going to end the fight with the kienzan & it just magically tore between the part where Goten & Trunks were not. Coincidence? Or a claculated throw to reveal their identites, which she already knew. lol Goku9001, what your statemnent is impliying is that the ssj kids are close to 18 in order for them to be struggling against her. Not the opposite. lol Edited by Squall Strife, Aug 29 2016, 05:33 PM.
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 Gender Neutral, meaning I don't want to be specified to either gender. If you keep calling me by gender terms, I'm just going to call you an "it". That's all. | |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 29 2016, 06:35 PM Post #54 |
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No one doubts that the kids had issues with manoeuvrability, but why would #18 go all out against someone who's "no ordinary human"? Not recognised as a threat; not recognised as stupendously strong or whatever, but just much stronger than ordinary humans. It's ridiculous to think she's come at that with everything she's got, when doing so to the very strongest known super-human would obliterate him countless-times over. Not only that, but she knows Super Saiyan amps up their power somewhat, and was still ready and willing to fight. Was even relieved. Whatever power she felt from fighting Trunks, she must still feel herself to be capable of taking that on after it's multiplied many-fold. This means they were not equals, and would at the very least have been twice as strong as what she imagines to be their base power. Conjecture. We see countless times that the children are ridiculously strong, and they don't need to be equal to #18 in base to get that point across. Them being stronger than her as Super Saiyans is plee~~eenty to make this abundantly clear to us. She was unsure of how strong they were, but remained unconcerned, only confused. She never shows any frustration or concern until they turn Super Saiyan, at which point she looks delighted, because now she thinks she knows what she's dealing with, and how to deal with it. Yes, them multiplying that power she had just been fighting was a relief to her, because any problems she was having in the fight was that she didn't understand Mighty Mask's power, not him being too powerful for her. If they were equals already then she should have realised she was f***ed the moment they transformed. She didn't. She blind-sided them? She flew up, right in front of his eyes, and hit him from the direction she moved in. If he didn't see where she went, it's because she was too fast, and him too slow. You make it sound like she was resorting to tricks to win, when she just simply moved too fast for them and scored a counter hit, for whatever reason, and Trunks was just too slow to react or notice, for whatever reason. Again, it's his own failing that left him open to attack, or her superiority in that moment. No underhanded tactics, just straight up superior/inferior. The more you try and drive this point home, the more ridiculous it sounds. Her scoring a hit against an opponent she wants to beat—but reasonably doesn't want to kill, and whose power she has absolutely no clue about, and therefore how much he can handle—means she was giving it her all? Despite being happy about seeing this same power multiply many times—at least twice—right in front of her eyes? Edited by Sandy Shore, Aug 29 2016, 06:39 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Aug 29 2016, 06:50 PM Post #55 |
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Izanagi!
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Trunks was dragging Goten around everywhere, he was dead weight. Regarding #18 again, how much power was she using? It must have been fluctuating throughout the fight, as she wasn't able to get a good handle on Mighty Mask's power, right? However, that'd involve Mighty Mask doing the exact same thing; otherwise, she would've been able to tell how strong he was, alter her power to be a decent amount above it and take him out with ease. But then, why would Trunks be doing that? Unless you try and argue that #18 got completely lucky when she stopped suppressing as much and happened to land directly in Mighty Mask's range of power. |
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| + Sandy Shore | Aug 29 2016, 07:51 PM Post #56 |
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I don't think she ended up exactly at Mighty Mask's power, but using the super-humans that she knows as a measuring stick, and going up from there is far more reasonable than her thinking he's countless times stronger than the strongest human ever based on his ability to shrug-off some regular humans, thus causing her to go all-out with her power that would utterly murder, fifty-times over, the strongest human ever. It's far less ridiculous. And I don't think Trunks not going all out is the biggest problem in this scenario, if even a problem at all. It's not like he knows how strong she actually is—evidenced by not knowing how much to hold back as Super Saiyan—and he deals with a few of her attacks before himself going on the offensive, as if getting a feel for her, which she in-turn deals with, and responds with a kick that sees him running-scared, and then her ramping it up enough to score a clean hit, and force them to transform. And them transforming makes her happy, being direct evidence that she's got to be at least twice as strong as whatever power she's already gauged them at, because she's still confident about taking that power on after it's been, at the very least, doubled right in front of her eyes. She knows Super Saiyan makes them much stronger. If they were already her equal (by supposing she was already going all out) she'd be freaking out already. Everything suggests her only issue with Mighty Mask is her inability to gauge him, and is relieved when he's revealed to be many-times stronger, simply because now she knows what his deal is - and supposedly how to deal with him. Edited by Sandy Shore, Aug 29 2016, 07:54 PM.
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| Goku9001 | Aug 29 2016, 08:35 PM Post #57 |
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There's something called analyzing an opponent's abilities through movement alone which is something many Z-fighters are capable of doing and Mighty Mask approaching her was enough of a demonstration of his speed to realize he was a tough opponent and that she should be cautious:  And she demonstrates that this was a possibility through analyzing the Ki Attack's speed:  Him not being considered stupendously strong stems from him not being seen as massively superior and that can easily be explained through the suit hindering his ability to the point where he merely rivaled her. I'm fine with the Base Kids being below Android 18, but significantly? That's something I can't buy at all.
She can't sense Ki, so I'm not sure what you're implying by claiming the bold. Android 18 was only confident because she discovered the Kid's identity. Her entire demeanor shifted from being calm and cautious to being overconfident once they actually transformed, so her confidence doesn't stem from their actual power at all and can easily be explained through her acknowledging their identity which is the only moment they're actually smiling.
Now that's conjecture and something I wouldn't agree with it at all. Being stronger than her doesn't automatically qualify them to be strong by Buu Arc Standards. If Akira Toriyama did feel as if the boy's strength was properly portrayed, why have them fight her in Base in the first place? Is there any particular reason for it if Android 18 was heavily suppressed as you say?
When did I argue that the Kids being confined in the suit were too powerful for Android 18? There's obviously some sort of misunderstanding and them being slightly inferior to her while confined in the suit easily explains why she wasn't concerned, but them being somewhat equal to her also explains why she acknowledged their strength instead of displaying the demeanor she did against SSJ Vegeta. Instead of claiming that "he wasn't special", she goes as far as to acknowledge that he was relatively strong. That doesn't sound like someone massively inferior to Android 18 in the least. Furthermore, what you're assuming is that Android 18 knew that SSJ enhances one's strength by multi-folds, but she has no experience fighting the Base Saiyans, nor can she sense Ki, so how would she know that? A power up that Vegeta made against Goku in the Saiyan Saga is enough to signify a massive power-up. Additionally, the fact that Android 18 was frightened for her life in response to a Suppressed Ki blast signifies that Android 18 literally had no understanding of the Super Saiyan transformation in the first place other than, "it makes you stronger."
What I'm arguing is that she couldn't overpower him in the clash that they had, so she resorted to another tactic, which was scoring a heavy blow against an unguarded area. Trunks's didn't detect her or react to her because the suit hindered his mobility and he didn't expect it at all, and the inability to sense her energy (because she doesn't use Ki) implies that the Masked Duo were at a significant disadvantage and had less awareness when reacting to her attack. It doesn't matter if he saw her, the fact that he was left unguarded by that and Android 18 struck him with a heavy blow in a defenseless area suggests that she couldn't just overwhelm him in their class like she did with Vegeta, where she toyed with him and didn't resort to blindside attacks at all to get her point across.
Which had nothing to do with him surviving a heavy blow in his most defenseless area with minimal damage.
This is rather clear that you're missing the point of the argument, and the fact that you keep presenting the same argument over and over again with the bold suggests that you need to rely on pure conjecture to support your argument. Edited by Goku9001, Aug 29 2016, 09:01 PM.
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Aug 29 2016, 09:03 PM Post #58 |
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So you admit that you are speculating beyond this point to suit your pov. "That's something I can't buy at all" confirms it. There is no need to get into specifics as it would just be a waste of time. So here's the main points: Goten & Trunks fights 18 in base initially. 18 keeps up with this initial base. Goten & Trunks see that this isn't working. They use ssj. 18 smiles @ this revelation. Trunks uses a suppressed blast. 18 Dodges it. She uses Keinzan. The cosume is ruined. The kids are disqualified. She moves on. In no way, does this confirm that she wasn't holding back in any of this match because if she was 18 would have beaten them initially. 18 sees the kids turn ssj. She is familar with this tranformation as she has faced this form before which confirms she was holding back prior. Trunks fires a suppressed blast. She dodges. She is now aware that the blast could have hit her had she had not been careful to see it coming her way. Her reaction confirms this. She uses kienzan to finish the match, knowing full well who her opponents are @ this time. lol |
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Gender Neutral, meaning I don't want to be specified to either gender. If you keep calling me by gender terms, I'm just going to call you an "it". That's all. | |
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| Goku9001 | Aug 29 2016, 09:08 PM Post #59 |
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If speculating is analyzing the manga at its fullest to come to a specific conclusion, then yes, I am speculating. Edited by Goku9001, Aug 29 2016, 09:08 PM.
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| + Son-Goku | Aug 29 2016, 09:09 PM Post #60 |
孫悟空
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Pre-RoSaT their base forms are more than twice as strong as Androids Saga Piccolo and their Super Saiyan forms are stronger than the Cell Games Super Saiyans except for Goku and Gohan. Post-RoSaT their base and Super Saiyan forms are a bit stronger than Gohan's during the Cell Games. |
 RP Character Bios Dragon Ball Super: The Super Human Dragon Ball Super: Preparation for the Tournament of Power | |
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