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How strong is goten and trunks?; How strong is goten and trunks using piccolo levels
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Topic Started: Aug 29 2016, 01:38 AM (3,907 Views)
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+ Pyrus
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Aug 29 2016, 05:58 AM
Post #31
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- Lazuli
- Aug 29 2016, 04:45 AM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Aug 29 2016, 03:48 AM
The suppression argument again?
If she's capable of suppressing her power to the exact level where she's pretty much equal with Trunks, why didn't she increase it a little bit and knock him out of the ring?
That requires that she has even more control of her power than you'd probably believe, and an actual grasp of Mighty Mask's power - which she absolutely doesn't. She's capable of suppressing her power to an exact level where she can one-bang all the regular humans she's faced without killing them, so she can and does suppress herself. She sizes up Mighty Mask as being no ordinary human—so, like Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien?—but still very much doesn't want to be killing anyone. So she goes at Mighty Mask with some force, but to suggest she goes all out is insane. Imagine if she went all out against any of the super humans; she'd decapitate them in a single punch. So, I imagine that's the level she's trying to knock out—and not kill—but the kids are tougher than that, so they put up a bit of a fight, but she still manages to up her game enough to put them down and perhaps hope to keep them down with a generic blast. However, still not knowing how strong Mighty Mask was, it was evidently not enough. They go Super Saiyan, she says they could get out of hand or something, and that she needs to end the fight as quickly as possible. Then proceeds to do just that: exposing their identity so as to end the fight as quickly as possible. She hasn't killed or attempted to kill anyone the entire tournament, and everything suggests to me the kienzan is used for comedic purposes as a way to expose the kids, and not her attempting to kill the kids because she's so severely outclassed, and apparently desperate enough for the prize money so as to get disqualified and lose the prize money, and ruin any relationship with all of Krillin's friends, and therefore possibly even krillin himself. - Pyrus
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>insert obligatory "Vegeta is cocky so I can dismiss anything he says without proving him wrong" shtick
No, but he did claim with that statement he would win the entire tournament, when he shouldn't know how strong Piccolo is, but was most importantly dead wrong about being able to beat Goku - thus being essentially arrogant. The only relevant one he should be certain about is #18, who should be at a static power level, but when it was a general, sweeping statement, aimed at no one, that he was wrong about, I see no reason to consider it alone very weighty. The whole thing with Piccolo being weaker than base Saiyans seems fragile in its implications, and doesn't seem compatible with him being at least 30% of Cell Games Goku, and the Saiyan's gains being limited by Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan.
The Piccolo side of things is hazy, but there's no evidence Vegeta was wrong about 18.
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Squall Strife
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Aug 29 2016, 06:27 AM
Post #32
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- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 05:58 AM
- Lazuli
- Aug 29 2016, 04:45 AM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Aug 29 2016, 03:48 AM
The suppression argument again?
If she's capable of suppressing her power to the exact level where she's pretty much equal with Trunks, why didn't she increase it a little bit and knock him out of the ring?
That requires that she has even more control of her power than you'd probably believe, and an actual grasp of Mighty Mask's power - which she absolutely doesn't. She's capable of suppressing her power to an exact level where she can one-bang all the regular humans she's faced without killing them, so she can and does suppress herself. She sizes up Mighty Mask as being no ordinary human—so, like Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien?—but still very much doesn't want to be killing anyone. So she goes at Mighty Mask with some force, but to suggest she goes all out is insane. Imagine if she went all out against any of the super humans; she'd decapitate them in a single punch. So, I imagine that's the level she's trying to knock out—and not kill—but the kids are tougher than that, so they put up a bit of a fight, but she still manages to up her game enough to put them down and perhaps hope to keep them down with a generic blast. However, still not knowing how strong Mighty Mask was, it was evidently not enough. They go Super Saiyan, she says they could get out of hand or something, and that she needs to end the fight as quickly as possible. Then proceeds to do just that: exposing their identity so as to end the fight as quickly as possible. She hasn't killed or attempted to kill anyone the entire tournament, and everything suggests to me the kienzan is used for comedic purposes as a way to expose the kids, and not her attempting to kill the kids because she's so severely outclassed, and apparently desperate enough for the prize money so as to get disqualified and lose the prize money, and ruin any relationship with all of Krillin's friends, and therefore possibly even krillin himself. - Pyrus
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>insert obligatory "Vegeta is cocky so I can dismiss anything he says without proving him wrong" shtick
No, but he did claim with that statement he would win the entire tournament, when he shouldn't know how strong Piccolo is, but was most importantly dead wrong about being able to beat Goku - thus being essentially arrogant. The only relevant one he should be certain about is #18, who should be at a static power level, but when it was a general, sweeping statement, aimed at no one, that he was wrong about, I see no reason to consider it alone very weighty. The whole thing with Piccolo being weaker than base Saiyans seems fragile in its implications, and doesn't seem compatible with him being at least 30% of Cell Games Goku, and the Saiyan's gains being limited by Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan.
The Piccolo side of things is hazy, but there's no evidence Vegeta was wrong about 18.
What proof do you have he was factoring her in when he made that comment? Other than just being there yet not being mentioned or implied to be thought of? You let this line of logic slide with Piccolo it seems, so why not with 18? Does Vegeta even know 18 will be in the tournament at this point? Do we know for sure that Vegeta is even aware of that?
Also, Gr8 post Lazuli. lol
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Aug 29 2016, 06:47 AM
Post #33
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- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 01:40 AM
Base Goten/Trunks ~ Piccolo (post-Kami fusion)
SSj Goten/Trunks > Piccolo (Boo Saga)
Simple enough for me.
But the fight between Mighty Mask and #18 says otherwise. 
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8573199/1/
7 pages and not a single panel that showed Mighty Mask landed a punch or kick or was even close at landing a strike.
Piccolo post Kami was even with #17 in terms of power and #18 was close to #17.
I challenge anyone here to find me a single panel from that shows the kids landing a single blow in any manga medium.
Viz Release
https://www.viz.com/dragon-ball
Weekly Shōnen Jump Serialization
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Dragon+ball+z+Sh%C5%8Dnen+Jump&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3ADragon+ball+z+Sh%C5%8Dnen+Jump
or
Kanzenban Release
https://www.amazon.com/Dragonball-Perfect-version-Dragon-Japanese/dp/4088734440/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472453042&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=Dragon+ball+z+Kanzenban
or
Tankōbon Release
or
Digital Color Edition Release
Edited by Zoom, Aug 29 2016, 07:07 AM. |
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Thiln
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Aug 29 2016, 07:25 AM
Post #34
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If Base Kid Trunks were truly so weak that even his Super Saiyan form, a transformation that amplifies the user's power by 50x, wasn't enough to handle #18 then there's no way he should have been performing as well as he did. This beating should have been on the same scale as Freeza at half power leaving Goku kneeling on the ground in agony from a casually half-hearted blunt elbow hammering into his stomach. What are we witness to instead, though? Trunks performing adequately well by taking hits and putting up a fight while encumbered by an oversized costume and having to coordinate movements with Goten, albeit not managing to land any hits of his own. Restrained or not, unless #18 was pulling back her punches to the extent that they carried less than 2% of her overall strength, a feat which we have seen only from Freeza using artificially suppressed forms, then it's fairly safe to conclude that the kids were close to #18 in Base.
To be fair, Future #17 admitted to using less than half of his strength against Future Gohan; so a precedent does exist for the cyborgs being capable of consciously restraining their power. Although you also have Piccolo lecturing #20 on the principles of power adjustment and amplification during their fight.
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Goku9001
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Aug 29 2016, 07:31 AM
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There's really no implication that Android 18 was holding back as opposed to Goten and Trunks where Akira Toriyama literally highlighted the repercussions of the suit that held back Goten and Trunks severely. It seems to me that Akira Toriyama wanted to emphasize how powerful the kids were and it's honestly no surprise that the Base Kids were above Android 18 at this point in time.
Resorting to a blindside attack to get a clean hit on Goten/Trunks implies that Android 18 couldn't simply dispatch the kids quickly, because if that were the case, then why rely on a blindside attack in the first place?
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+ Pyrus
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Aug 29 2016, 07:35 AM
Post #36
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- Squall Strife
- Aug 29 2016, 06:27 AM
- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 05:58 AM
- Lazuli
- Aug 29 2016, 04:45 AM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Aug 29 2016, 03:48 AM
The suppression argument again?
If she's capable of suppressing her power to the exact level where she's pretty much equal with Trunks, why didn't she increase it a little bit and knock him out of the ring?
That requires that she has even more control of her power than you'd probably believe, and an actual grasp of Mighty Mask's power - which she absolutely doesn't. She's capable of suppressing her power to an exact level where she can one-bang all the regular humans she's faced without killing them, so she can and does suppress herself. She sizes up Mighty Mask as being no ordinary human—so, like Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien?—but still very much doesn't want to be killing anyone. So she goes at Mighty Mask with some force, but to suggest she goes all out is insane. Imagine if she went all out against any of the super humans; she'd decapitate them in a single punch. So, I imagine that's the level she's trying to knock out—and not kill—but the kids are tougher than that, so they put up a bit of a fight, but she still manages to up her game enough to put them down and perhaps hope to keep them down with a generic blast. However, still not knowing how strong Mighty Mask was, it was evidently not enough. They go Super Saiyan, she says they could get out of hand or something, and that she needs to end the fight as quickly as possible. Then proceeds to do just that: exposing their identity so as to end the fight as quickly as possible. She hasn't killed or attempted to kill anyone the entire tournament, and everything suggests to me the kienzan is used for comedic purposes as a way to expose the kids, and not her attempting to kill the kids because she's so severely outclassed, and apparently desperate enough for the prize money so as to get disqualified and lose the prize money, and ruin any relationship with all of Krillin's friends, and therefore possibly even krillin himself. - Pyrus
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>insert obligatory "Vegeta is cocky so I can dismiss anything he says without proving him wrong" shtick
No, but he did claim with that statement he would win the entire tournament, when he shouldn't know how strong Piccolo is, but was most importantly dead wrong about being able to beat Goku - thus being essentially arrogant. The only relevant one he should be certain about is #18, who should be at a static power level, but when it was a general, sweeping statement, aimed at no one, that he was wrong about, I see no reason to consider it alone very weighty. The whole thing with Piccolo being weaker than base Saiyans seems fragile in its implications, and doesn't seem compatible with him being at least 30% of Cell Games Goku, and the Saiyan's gains being limited by Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan.
The Piccolo side of things is hazy, but there's no evidence Vegeta was wrong about 18.
What proof do you have he was factoring her in when he made that comment? Other than just being there yet not being mentioned or implied to be thought of? You let this line of logic slide with Piccolo it seems, so why not with 18? Does Vegeta even know 18 will be in the tournament at this point? Do we know for sure that Vegeta is even aware of that? Also, Gr8 post Lazuli. lol
Now Vegeta is an idiot and he's blind to his surroundings?
- SSj4 Gotenks
- Aug 29 2016, 06:47 AM
The suit hampers their movement and Goten is dead weight. I don't think they'd be operating at full capacity.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 29 2016, 07:36 AM. |
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Squall Strife
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Aug 29 2016, 08:14 AM
Post #37
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- Thiln
- Aug 29 2016, 07:25 AM
If Base Kid Trunks were truly so weak that even his Super Saiyan form, a transformation that amplifies the user's power by 50x, wasn't enough to handle #18 then there's no way he should have been performing as well as he did. This beating should have been on the same scale as Freeza at half power leaving Goku kneeling on the ground in agony from a casually half-hearted blunt elbow hammering into his stomach. What are we witness to instead, though? Trunks performing adequately well by taking hits and putting up a fight while encumbered by an oversized costume and having to coordinate movements with Goten, albeit not managing to land any hits of his own. Restrained or not, unless #18 was pulling back her punches to the extent that they carried less than 2% of her overall strength, a feat which we have seen only from Freeza using artificially suppressed forms, then it's fairly safe to conclude that the kids were close to #18 in Base.
To be fair, Future #17 admitted to using less than half of his strength against Future Gohan; so a precedent does exist for the cyborgs being capable of consciously restraining their power. Although you also have Piccolo lecturing #20 on the principles of power adjustment and amplification during their fight.
Eh. How well the kids did is pov. You could argue that 18 was just suppressed as to why the kids were doing so well & that statement would be just as moot as the one you made without any evidence ofc.
So a suit greatly hinders an ability to fight, yet they manage to stay in the fight somehow.....eh.
Idk about that 2% 18 would be using, but she could def go down to that level. She did with that machine & also those Cell Jrs. didn't kill the humans when they were fighting them & I'm sure those Cell Jrs. must have been using 1%< of their power or somewhere around there.
- Goku9001
- Aug 29 2016, 07:31 AM
There's really no implication that Android 18 was holding back as opposed to Goten and Trunks where Akira Toriyama literally highlighted the repercussions of the suit that held back Goten and Trunks severely. It seems to me that Akira Toriyama wanted to emphasize how powerful the kids were and it's honestly no surprise that the Base Kids were above Android 18 at this point in time.
Resorting to a blindside attack to get a clean hit on Goten/Trunks implies that Android 18 couldn't simply dispatch the kids quickly, because if that were the case, then why rely on a blindside attack in the first place?
That's assuming if the suit did indeed hinder their ability greatly, which was not the case as to how they did in the match.
The kids are powerful. How does that = >18.
Base Kids> 18 is not viable as 18 is shown smiling when they turn ssj.
There is no "blind side attack". So that's not even viable to use tbh. lol
- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 07:35 AM
- Squall Strife
- Aug 29 2016, 06:27 AM
- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 05:58 AM
- Lazuli
- Aug 29 2016, 04:45 AM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Aug 29 2016, 03:48 AM
The suppression argument again?
If she's capable of suppressing her power to the exact level where she's pretty much equal with Trunks, why didn't she increase it a little bit and knock him out of the ring?
That requires that she has even more control of her power than you'd probably believe, and an actual grasp of Mighty Mask's power - which she absolutely doesn't. She's capable of suppressing her power to an exact level where she can one-bang all the regular humans she's faced without killing them, so she can and does suppress herself. She sizes up Mighty Mask as being no ordinary human—so, like Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien?—but still very much doesn't want to be killing anyone. So she goes at Mighty Mask with some force, but to suggest she goes all out is insane. Imagine if she went all out against any of the super humans; she'd decapitate them in a single punch. So, I imagine that's the level she's trying to knock out—and not kill—but the kids are tougher than that, so they put up a bit of a fight, but she still manages to up her game enough to put them down and perhaps hope to keep them down with a generic blast. However, still not knowing how strong Mighty Mask was, it was evidently not enough. They go Super Saiyan, she says they could get out of hand or something, and that she needs to end the fight as quickly as possible. Then proceeds to do just that: exposing their identity so as to end the fight as quickly as possible. She hasn't killed or attempted to kill anyone the entire tournament, and everything suggests to me the kienzan is used for comedic purposes as a way to expose the kids, and not her attempting to kill the kids because she's so severely outclassed, and apparently desperate enough for the prize money so as to get disqualified and lose the prize money, and ruin any relationship with all of Krillin's friends, and therefore possibly even krillin himself. - Pyrus
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>insert obligatory "Vegeta is cocky so I can dismiss anything he says without proving him wrong" shtick
No, but he did claim with that statement he would win the entire tournament, when he shouldn't know how strong Piccolo is, but was most importantly dead wrong about being able to beat Goku - thus being essentially arrogant. The only relevant one he should be certain about is #18, who should be at a static power level, but when it was a general, sweeping statement, aimed at no one, that he was wrong about, I see no reason to consider it alone very weighty. The whole thing with Piccolo being weaker than base Saiyans seems fragile in its implications, and doesn't seem compatible with him being at least 30% of Cell Games Goku, and the Saiyan's gains being limited by Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan.
The Piccolo side of things is hazy, but there's no evidence Vegeta was wrong about 18.
What proof do you have he was factoring her in when he made that comment? Other than just being there yet not being mentioned or implied to be thought of? You let this line of logic slide with Piccolo it seems, so why not with 18? Does Vegeta even know 18 will be in the tournament at this point? Do we know for sure that Vegeta is even aware of that? Also, Gr8 post Lazuli. lol
Now Vegeta is an idiot and he's blind to his surroundings? - SSj4 Gotenks
- Aug 29 2016, 06:47 AM
The suit hampers their movement and Goten is dead weight. I don't think they'd be operating at full capacity.
No. He's just arrogant. That's all. lol
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Sam
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Aug 29 2016, 08:35 AM
Post #38
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- Pyrus
- Aug 29 2016, 01:40 AM
Base Goten/Trunks ~ Piccolo (post-Kami fusion)
SSj Goten/Trunks > Piccolo (Boo Saga)
Simple enough for me.
Despite all the conversation, I'm going to have to agree with Pyrus here. Piccolo had a small but steady progression of power after Cell. No doubt he continued training.
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Aug 29 2016, 09:30 AM
Post #39
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The suit hampers their movement and Goten is dead weight. I don't think they'd be operating at full capacity.
There is no doubt the costumes restrict their movements (as Trunks clearly says), but costume doesn't restrict Trunks arm power or speed, it only restricts mobility as Mighty Mask and if you include Goten it adds dead weight. If you look at the fight, Trunks suggested to go Ssj to win the fight only after fifth page of the fight, so if costume is the only reason for them losing, what would going Ssj do if the costume restricts their movements? Before answer read below.
You're suggesting the kids are at Piccolo post Kami level which Piccolo is dead even with #17 in terms of power and #18 is below that level. If you add 50x, mate game over quickly, but the dialogue doesn't suggest that, in fact Trunks still says they at a disadvantage after turning Ssj and says the only option is to use a chi blast. You have to think the costume is man made cloth, not weighted cloths like Goku or Piccolo. There is no counter argument against adding 50x to someone who supposedly be pretty close to that person in their base. Remember Goku going Ssj with 40 tons.
You also have to remember, the kids have knowledge of how powerful #18 is, but #18 has no idea of who mighty mask is besides him being un-usually strong. Throughout the whole fight, #18 started on the offense and within the end of the first page, Mighty Mask had no choice to go to the sky and second page onward gets pounded.
Anyway, I still have pretty much all saiyans at this point above #17 and #18, but i don't use this fight as evidence to help my cause because the dialogue and feats don't add up to what (later evidence in Dabra only saying the saiyans, how quickly and easily Vegeta dispose of Pocus) suggests.
But knowing the truth of how Toriyama works on a weekly based chapters, you can't judge his ideas on just one chapter, especially in the last arc Buu.
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+ Pointer
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Aug 29 2016, 09:49 AM
Post #40
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I guess the kids were far far weaker than Piccolo post kami, but after transforming they could even eat imperfect cell all at once
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Slifer
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Aug 29 2016, 01:28 PM
Post #41
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- Squall Strife
- Aug 29 2016, 05:16 AM
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Okay. But you are forgetting that Piccolo & Goku are in this tournament which contradicts his statement or....
Goku is irrelevant because he'd be fighting in Base, too. Base Vegeta > Piccolo can work if you make the MSSJ multiplier 10x or minimize Piccolo's RoSaT gains.
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he's just being overconfident,most likely arrogant, in this instance. lol
As I've already explained, there's a difference between being arrogant and being an idiot. You're suggesting Vegeta is an idiot.
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We don't even know how they train. So how can that be used.
We don't even know if they train period. Outside of play-fighting, which isn't training, we have no implications that the kids put any real effort into improving themselves.
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you are putting the kids down in this instance when your argument should be placing the kids above 18.lol
No I'm not. You have the kids significantly than the adults, yet Gohan believes he can be surpassed quickly if he isn't careful. You think such a large gap (as you claim) is gonna be closed in such a short time by play-fighting?
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Trunks got the better of him when he was suppressed and he got upset & used some more effort than he thought Trunks could take. That's all. lol
If Vegeta suppressed himself so Trunks could hit him then that negates the entire point and there'd be no reason for him to get mad about it. Vegeta isn't the type to purposefully hold back unless it's to display his superiority or the sake of a good fight, neither of which was being done here.
Again, you must think Vegeta really is an idiot.
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That's assuming if the suit did indeed hinder their ability greatly, which was not the case as to how they did in the match.
Try fighting someone while under a blanket and sitting on someone's else shoulders and tell me it doesn't hinder your performance.
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Base Kids> 18 is not viable as 18 is shown smiling when they turn ssj.
She smiled because they blew their cover. She can't sense ki so she'd have no idea to how much stronger they just became, until they fired a weakened blast that scared the s*** out of her so much that she resorted to a potentially fatal technique.
Edited by Slifer, Aug 29 2016, 01:38 PM. |
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Thiln
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Aug 29 2016, 01:53 PM
Post #42
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There's no way Piccolo is going to remain standing at all against Cell Jr (while fully intent on killing) if we're questioning whether he's even surpassed the Base Saiyans or not. For the Base Saiyans to be superior they would have had to have multiplied their power by almost 50x over the course of seven years. That's not happening at all within the Buu arc's timeline except for maybe a hypothetical Base Gohan (post Z-Sword training) using Kaioken x20 or something.
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Slifer
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Aug 29 2016, 01:59 PM
Post #43
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Then where do you draw the line on Vegeta claiming to win in Base? If we take the statement seriously while also including 18, then where does that leave Piccolo? Surely Vegeta would suspect Piccolo will be there.
Edited by Slifer, Aug 29 2016, 02:01 PM. |
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Thiln
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Aug 29 2016, 02:13 PM
Post #44
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I take it as Vegeta being his naturally overconfident self without full awareness of the circumstances concerning Piccolo's participation. Perhaps he was speaking only in respect to his fellow Saiyans? I just question the veracity of such an assertion when not too long ago Piccolo was holding his ground an opponent that was on-par with SSJ Vegeta.
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Slifer
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Aug 29 2016, 02:17 PM
Post #45
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- September 7, 2013
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I can't see him referring to just Saiyans because what happens if he gets put against 18 before any of them? He made a pact that he wouldn't transform, so if he's still confident in winning, that should factor all opponents, including her.
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4:40 PM Jul 13