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| How do Christians respond to this? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 27 2016, 01:04 AM (6,448 Views) | |
| Dankness Lava | Sep 24 2016, 03:58 AM Post #121 |
Dankness Forever
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I haven't read the whole thread, no. Just skimmed and stopped where my curiosity was piqued. Nope. He made them perfect. They went against the creator. You can't have evil without good. He chose good over evil. It was all choice. Depends on your definition of bad. Ah, one of those lists where they twist verses and pull stuff out of context and conveniently leave out details. Yup. But let's get one thing straight. I'm not a Christian. Not religious of any sort. Backtracking to your comment where you appeared to group me in with religious people. Edited by Dankness Lava, Sep 24 2016, 04:00 AM.
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Sep 24 2016, 04:45 AM Post #122 |
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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(1) God did not create evil. He created free will. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Free will is a gift, the ability to reflect and to make one's own choices. Evil is the abuse of free will. Satan created evil when he abused free will. Then he tempted Eve and Adam to abuse their free will.
(2) We made ourselves imperfect. Adam and Eve made us vulnerable to sin. Everyone has sinned. I have. You have. It is a heritable, spiritual virus. That's why we need to be born again.
(3) Noah was the only one who sought out God (Genesis 6:8). He humbled himself and chose to follow God instead of glorify himself. Everyone else blamed God for the wicked suffering they consistently inflicted on each other and blamed God for the diseases that demons perpetuate. Sound familiar? Instead of admitting you need the lifeguard to save you and teach you how to swim, you blame the lifeguard instead of the criminals who keep dragging you back to the ocean to drown you again and again. Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Sep 24 2016, 04:48 AM.
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| We Super Saiyans are in a league of our own. | |
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| Dankness Lava | Sep 24 2016, 04:55 AM Post #123 |
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Dankness Forever
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Isaiah 45:7 says God did create evil. Thing is, evil can't exist without good, and vice versa. |
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| SuperSaiyan1993 | Sep 24 2016, 05:22 AM Post #124 |
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Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans
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(1) God did not create evil. That verse is misunderstood, as it is an example of indirect causation, not direct causation. Hebrew writers used indirect causation frequently. From their perspective, if God allowed something to happen, he "caused" it. Look at these two verses. They both refer to the exact same event, so only one of them can be true: 2 Samuel 24:1 "Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.'" 1 Chronicles 21:1 "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (2) Satan created evil, for all evil is the product of his desires: John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (3) God never uses evil, and there is no darkness in him at all: James 1:13-15 "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." 1 John 1:5 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Sep 24 2016, 05:23 AM.
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Sep 24 2016, 05:31 AM Post #125 |
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Shining Light, weren't you a Christian like a week ago? |
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| Ding | Sep 24 2016, 05:36 AM Post #126 |
 
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Still is. |
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Dingo Dingo | |
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| Buuberries | Sep 24 2016, 07:48 AM Post #127 |
No
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then why are you in a discussion with them if you have no idea what's going on? |
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| + Steve | Sep 24 2016, 11:38 AM Post #128 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Care to actually back that up? There are links to the verses right there. Assuming you have your own Bible how about you go check it and see that they're the same. You just completely dodged that which doesn't do much to help your side of the argument. This is why I don't keep religious stuff on hand, because most of the time it's ignored or dodged with "That was metaphorical" "We can't understand God" etc etc Yet again if God was omniscient then it would know every choice that every being could ever make across all of time so it made humans full well knowing what would happen. And if it created everything it still created evil. Why did there need to be a balance between good and evil? Who gave God these rules exactly? That's merely an attempt to explain and justify God's actions, as in, things God chose to do. In any case there are two options: A) God didn't know what it was doing when it created everything B) God did know what it was doing when it created everything Both of those are as bad as one another. A means we have a highly fallible God on our hands that makes awful choices. B means we have an almighty God that makes awful choices for the fun of it to watch s*** hit the fan. Neither God are respectable, wonderful beings. |
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| Dankness Lava | Sep 24 2016, 01:39 PM Post #129 |
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Dankness Forever
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@supersaiyan1993 that's pretty much what I was getting at. @ofg nope @ding nope @buuberries with "them"? You lost me. I'll respond to you later today Steve. |
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Sep 24 2016, 03:57 PM Post #130 |
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I'm very confused by this entire thread. Maybe I'll actually read through some of it later today. I see a lot of the classic "you're taking things out of context, why don't you go read the bible? hur-hur" so I really don't have any desire to. You guys do realize that calling others out for taking things out of context is a fallacy, right? |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Sep 24 2016, 04:04 PM Post #131 |
 
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Why is that a fallacy? |
IT'S CHEESE Spoiler: click to toggle
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Sep 24 2016, 04:30 PM Post #132 |
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Because there are multiple interpretations for any text. Claiming that you know the proper interpretation/context of a particular passage over the person you're debating with reeks of fallacy to me. I've had the "proper context" argument thrown against me time after time when I had already considered both the historical and literary context prior to posting. It's fallacious because these types of debaters don't actually have an answer for "what is the proper context?" The majority of the time they only say that because they don't know how else to prove their opponent wrong. I'm not sure if Christians realize this, but atheists, too, understand things like interpretation and context. We're not stupid. We probably know more about the bible than most of the people we debate against, so it's amusing to me. Now, if someone were to take a passage and completely twist it to fit their own agenda, that would be taking things out of context, but I rarely see that happening on the atheist's side of the debate. It actually happens more frequently on the Christian side in my experience. |
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| Dankness Lava | Sep 24 2016, 04:32 PM Post #133 |
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Dankness Forever
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Saying that's a fallacy just seems like a cop-out in and of itself to me. |
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Sep 24 2016, 04:55 PM Post #134 |
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Ummm.... how? lol |
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| * Sousen Ichimonji | Sep 24 2016, 05:07 PM Post #135 |
You are calm and reposed, let your beauty unfold
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I mean, accusing other people of a fallacy is also a fallacy, or so I've been told. And me pointing that out is also probably a fallacy. Debates don't really come down to who can say the word "fallacy" fastest, or most. To take this topic back to its roots, there is absolutely no way to rationalise or make sense of the problem of evil in the ideals of Christianity. In fact Christianity and Islam are the only major religions in our history to have that problem. In ancient Greece, the gods were recognisably human. Poseidon was the god of the sea and earthquakes. He was also a rapist. It was easy to rationalise that he would still cause an earthquake in a perfectly good and devout city because he was aggrieved in some way. Zoroastrianism taught that the world was in conflict between two deities, one perfectly good and one perfectly evil. Traditionalist religions across the world included shamanism, where spirits of any kind might always try to interfere and cause harm. Basically, for the vast majority of human history and across the world, we've allowed for bad intentions in the religious sphere. Reading the Bible, you'll notice a conspicuous lack of the words 'omnipotent', 'omnipresent' and 'omniscient', unless reading a very new rendition (I know that the Book of Mormon uses them plenty). God is just... great. He's unknowably powerful, because he's never taken part in any Deity Olympics so we can track and measure his abilities. But being unfathomably more powerful than a human doesn't make him capable of absolutely anything. And the Hebrew's who created and kept the Torah clearly didn't envision him as being all-knowing or all-present; he straight up walks out of the Garden of Eden at one point and Adam and Eve get up to their mischief. The God we recognise from the Old Testament and the Torah is of the same cast as the other ancient world deities; powerful, at times generous and most crucially, as passionate as a human. His anger, sadness and pride is pretty well evidenced. So Judaism has no real issue with 'the Problem of Evil'. But Christianity and Islam do. Following the New Testament, the new script was that God loved everyone. He cared about everyone. So immediately you have to take out the stuff where he can get angry and just cause suffering cause he's been disobeyed. Over the next 4 centuries, Christianity came to dominate the socio-religio-political sphere of the Roman Empire, making it the dominant religion of a vast swath of the world at that time. The Christian God was bumped up and over hundreds of other deities, and this had to be justified by the pantheistic and open-minded Romans. Emperor Constantine, who made Christianity the central religion of the empire, claimed that he knew this god was the mightiest, and would lead him, and his subjects, to victory. Over those centuries God went from strong to the strongest as other religions were forsaken and the cult grew, and over time this lauded power became indistinguishable from omnipotence. So by the Dark Ages God had become omnipotent and all loving. He had become/created a problem that can't be explained; the problem of evil. There is still no real, solid answer. But for the title question; how do Christians respond to the problem of evil. Well, that's an unbelievably broad question. I could make an equally broad topic called "how do humans deal with being cold sometimes." There are so many sects and outlooks in Christianity; the only certain consensus you'll get with Christians is that there was a figure called Christ who is our salvation. Off the top of my head, some Calvinists might say that suffering is a reflection on your worldly works, and a part of the life planned out to ensure you go to heaven. Some gnostics would say the physical form is an illusion anyway and all suffering is a cheap deception from some other agent besides God (gnostics be crazy). Some Pentecostals might say it's a mark that you are failing god and need to up your game to get into Heaven. Catholicism would say it's a consequence of sin. In modernity, people think that Satan is a much much bigger part of Christianity than he actually is; that he constantly struggles with God and causes/creates evil, despite God's seeming omnipotence which should alow him to crush Satan in an instant. There are so many ways of looking at evil. Most involve all of those who suffered going to heaven for eternity by the end, which rationalises the suffering as something bad happening rn but which will be effortlessly overshadowed by the following afterlife. Edited by Sousen Ichimonji, Sep 24 2016, 05:11 PM.
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 Call me a safe bet, I'm betting I'm not I'm glad that you can forgive, only hoping as time goes, you can forget | |
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