SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 02:28 PM

I would rather have faith in God than assume -- without having all of the facts -- that there was a better way to make the universe.

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He sacrificed His own Son to save us, even though he could have started over by erasing us and replacing us with a new universe with new beings not infected with sin.

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In my own life, when I have prayed, Jesus saved me from three near-death experiences, saved my family from my violent father, and saved everyone in my family from their own near-death experiences.

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Because of the sacrifice God made for us and because of how Jesus has always been there for me, I choose to trust God's plans instead of mankind's opinions.

Lazuli

Sep 23 2016, 02:47 PM

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 02:28 PM

I would rather have faith in God than assume -- without having all of the facts -- that there was a better way to make the universe.

You're assuming the Universe was made in the first place, and by God no less.

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He sacrificed His own Son to save us, even though he could have started over by erasing us and replacing us with a new universe with new beings not infected with sin.

He couldn't think of a better way to "forgive us" than to have his son suffer immensely, than to just, I don't know, forgive us? The guy's clearly a sadistic freak with a hard-on for making things suffer. A bloody rainbow would have done nicely.

Then again, he only sends those after he's wiped out all of humanity for being all that he made and allowed them to be.

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In my own life, when I have prayed, Jesus saved me from three near-death experiences, saved my family from my violent father, and saved everyone in my family from their own near-death experiences.

Confirmation bias.

As for Job, since he created Satan, he's essentially created something for the purpose of having it question him so that he can set-up this situation where he can prove to it, and therefore himself, that he can torture his creations relentlessly and they still grovel and worship him - something he would have already known, but obviously just wanted to do it for the kicks.

Oh, and then refuse to state his reasons for doing so. Maybe not even Job would have stayed faithful had he admitted he was using him to as masturbation material.

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Because of the sacrifice God made for us and because of how Jesus has always been there for me, I choose to trust God's plans instead of mankind's opinions.

Believe in whatever you want, but you're ignoring everything about God that doesn't suit you. Instead, you're constructing your own imaginary best-friend-come-guardian-angel that seemingly allows you to not ask any difficult question.

If you're going to go on about how real he is, at least accept him for what he actually is - completely unacceptable.

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 03:07 PM

Lazuli

Sep 23 2016, 02:47 PM

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 02:28 PM

I would rather have faith in God than assume -- without having all of the facts -- that there was a better way to make the universe.

You're assuming the Universe was made in the first place, and by God no less.

Quote:

 

He sacrificed His own Son to save us, even though he could have started over by erasing us and replacing us with a new universe with new beings not infected with sin.

He couldn't think of a better way to "forgive us" than to have his son suffer immensely, than to just, I don't know, forgive us? The guy's clearly a sadistic freak with a hard-on for making things suffer. A bloody rainbow would have done nicely.

Then again, he only sends those after he's wiped out all of humanity for being all that he made and allowed them to be.

Quote:

 

In my own life, when I have prayed, Jesus saved me from three near-death experiences, saved my family from my violent father, and saved everyone in my family from their own near-death experiences.

Confirmation bias.

As for Job, since he created Satan, he's essentially created something for the purpose of having it question him so that he can set-up this situation where he can prove to it, and therefore himself, that he can torture his creations relentlessly and they still grovel and worship him - something he would have already known, but obviously just wanted to do it for the kicks.

Oh, and then refuse to state his reasons for doing so. Maybe not even Job would have stayed faithful had he admitted he was using him to as masturbation material.

Quote:

 

Because of the sacrifice God made for us and because of how Jesus has always been there for me, I choose to trust God's plans instead of mankind's opinions.

Believe in whatever you want, but you're ignoring everything about God that doesn't suit you. Instead, you're constructing your own imaginary best-friend-come-guardian-angel that seemingly allows you to not ask any difficult question.

If you're going to go on about how real he is, at least accept him for what he actually is - completely unacceptable.

Your argument depends on these assumptions:

(1) There was another way to redeem us and God did not choose it

(2) God could have a made a version of free will where we are not free to choose our own will

(3) Lucifer is not responsible for his choice to abuse his free will by choosing to incite rebellion and death

(4) We are not responsible for anything

(5) God needs to prove himself to us



You have absolutely no way of knowing whether (1) and (2) are true.

(3) is false, unless you can somehow think he is innocent of the billions of murders and diseases he has facilitated throughout history

(4) is false. We are not responsible for everything (see 3), but we are certainly responsible for our fair share of evil

(5) is false. Only unfounded entitlement would make one believe this instead of believing we must prove ourselves to Him.

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 03:07 PM

Your argument depends on these assumptions:

(1) There was another way to redeem us and God did not choose it

(2) God could have a made a version of free will where we are not free to choose our own will

(3) Lucifer is not responsible for his choice to abuse his free will by choosing to incite rebellion and death

(4) We are not responsible for anything

(5) God needs to prove himself to us



You have absolutely no way of knowing whether (1) and (2) are true.

(3) is false, unless you can somehow think he is innocent of the billions of murders and diseases he has facilitated throughout history

(4) is false. We are not responsible for everything (see 3), but we are certainly responsible for our fair share of evil

(5) is false. Only unfounded entitlement would make one believe this instead of believing we must prove ourselves to Him.

Lazuli

 

If you believe he's all powerful and all knowing, then all that he's done he has chosen to do so in exactly that way, as he's capable of doing anything he wants, whether you care to see it or not.

Nagito Komaeda

Sep 23 2016, 04:09 PM

We do, though. It's knowing everything and being able to do anything. We understand both of the concepts, why would there be an issue comprehending a being that has both and what it would be capable of?

If our very idea of God's traits are incorrect, how can we know that anything in the Bible has even a shred of truth?

SuperSaiyan1993

 

This is the underlying flaw in your argument. We do not know what it means to be simultaneously "all powerful and all knowing."

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God stated our thoughts -- what we think "all powerful and all knowing" means -- are incorrect:

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 04:44 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Sep 23 2016, 04:09 PM

We do, though. It's knowing everything and being able to do anything. We understand both of the concepts, why would there be an issue comprehending a being that has both and what it would be capable of?

If our very idea of God's traits are incorrect, how can we know that anything in the Bible has even a shred of truth?

Do we? As I mentioned, God clearly stated we do not understand his ways, and this can be proven.

Here are a few examples of how human logic -- our flawed definition of "able to do everything and all good" -- fails to understand God:

(A) How we cannot understand how a being can simultaneously be "able to everything" and "all good"

(1) If God is able to do everything, he is capable of doing evil.
(2) If God is all-good, then he can never do evil.
(3) If God can never do evil, then he is not able to do everything.

(B) How we cannot understand how "being able to do everything" works in the first place

(1) If God is omnipotent, he can do anything.
(2) Humans can create objects that are so large that we cannot move them.
(3) If God could create an object so large that he could not move it, then he cannot move everything.
(4) However, if God cannot create an object so large that he cannot move it, then this is one thing mankind can do that God cannot.

(C) How we are unable to understand the nature of free will

(1) Free will is a good thing for a person to have
(2) Free will only exists if you have the ability to choose whatever you want, including evil.
(3) If God takes away free will, he deprives us of something good.
(4) If God lets us exercise free will, he allows us to choose evil decisions.

Nagito Komaeda

Sep 23 2016, 04:50 PM

SuperSaiyan1993

Sep 23 2016, 04:44 PM

Nagito Komaeda

Sep 23 2016, 04:09 PM

We do, though. It's knowing everything and being able to do anything. We understand both of the concepts, why would there be an issue comprehending a being that has both and what it would be capable of?

If our very idea of God's traits are incorrect, how can we know that anything in the Bible has even a shred of truth?

Do we? As I mentioned, God clearly stated we do not understand his ways, and this can be proven.

Here are a few examples of how human logic -- our flawed definition of "able to do everything and all good" -- fails to understand God:

(A) How we cannot understand how a being can simultaneously be "able to everything" and "all good"

(1) If God is able to do everything, he is capable of doing evil.
(2) If God is all-good, then he can never do evil.
(3) If God can never do evil, then he is not able to do everything.

(B) How we cannot understand how "being able to do everything" works in the first place

(1) If God is omnipotent, he can do anything.
(2) Humans can create objects that are so large that we cannot move them.
(3) If God could create an object so large that he could not move it, then he cannot move everything.
(4) However, if God cannot create an object so large that he cannot move it, then this is one thing mankind can do that God cannot.

(C) How we are unable to understand the nature of free will

(1) Free will is a good thing for a person to have
(2) Free will only exists if you have the ability to choose whatever you want, including evil.
(3) If God takes away free will, he deprives us of something good.
(4) If God lets us exercise free will, he allows us to choose evil decisions.

So we don't know what he actually thinks, then. His powers are contradictory, yes, but power is neutral. Being all-powerful and being able to do anything doesn't mean that he'll do something bad. Being capable of doing something and actually doing something are two completely different things.

Yes, that doesn't make sense, but are you really willing to conclude that we know absolutely nothing about a God and its qualities and still believe in it wholeheartedly?

We don't have that choice though. It's like your great-grandfather signing a contract and every single future relative of his being bound by the terms. If you speak up, they'll just say ''well, you signed the contract'', even though you did no such thing.